doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Bismuth No-Tox Out of Business?

There's voodoo science for everything under the sun Brent.
Wack science goes to the highest bidder, and the lead shot duck hunter(good ol'boy) was caught with his pants down.
In today's world, scarry science may need more than a nutcase and his followers for it to be law!

Again, what's wrong with the science? Common, you're the man right? Show us the REAL science. Or are you just that wall of sound - hot air and nothing more?

Brent

It isn't so much a problem with the Science, as with the misuse of Science, especially by those drunk with arrogance and power.

Start from the start, with your "science."
If the base of your argument is science for science sake Brent, you'd be wrong about 90% of the time.
The lawyers are making a killing on bad science.
You sir, have cherry picked YOUR science!
If you torture science long enought, you'll get the facts in your favor everytime.
Toss in a grant or two!

You never get the final answer in a biological system.

But, Lowell, here's the answer to your question about how far sea ducks dive for food.

The Audubon Water Bird Guide says 20 to 30 feet for some---scoters etc---but King Eider have been caught in gill nets at depths of 150 feet.

You're welcome, sir.

So, Lowell, in the end, you really cannot address what's wrong with even one specific part of the literature on this topic, let alone the entire body of it. In other words, you have got no hole cards, no ammunition, nothing. It is wrong only because you say it is.

Lowell, you are just hot air on a summer night. A posuer. A fake.

Sad Lowell. Really sad.

You guys can debate the value or need for a ban of lead shot all you want. Let us face facts. There is a ban and we have to live with it. It would take 20-40 years to "reverse" the studies already out there, if in fact lead shot is not a real problem. It is like proving a negative which is often impossible in a real study.

It took 50 years to "dis spell" the myth that spinach had as much iron as liver. This myth was started by the government in WWII to get people to accept less liver in their diet and get them to accept spinach as a substitute. Meat was rationed, liver had been seen as a good source of iron and mothers wanted iron for their kids. The government told them that spinach was just as good source of iron as liver was on a equal weight basis. They bought into the lie and it lived on for 50 years.

Personally I think lead is a problem. Heavy metals can be toxic. Long term exposure increase the risk. These are facts. What levels are a risk might be debated. But back to the point. Bismuth is a real alternative or substitute for lead and the major maker is out of production. Bummer.

Live in the real world, follow the rules, figure out what your wife will let you get buy with and have fun. Works for me.

BrentD,
You always defend the legislation that imposes the use of alternative shot.Do you have a reason for your stance?
I will probably go to my grave fighting for a reasoned, sensible,truthfull set of facts as to how toxic the ingestion of leadshot in waterfowl really is.
This may at first seem to the pro-nontox fraternity a stupid stance.BUT PLEASE SHOW ME factual statistics.Not many, hardly any, and probably you also Brent, have not actually seen a waterfowl that as died of lead ingestion.I do know that 'scientists' have force fed ducks in laboratories with lead shot to measure the effect of lead on the body tissues.Perhaps if they had carried out their research on the marsh, shooting and picking up their dead quarry we would accept their 'science' more readily.Is it scientific to maim a creature with ineffective loads that Lead would have despatched instantly?
No. It is crass stupidity that will sound the deathknell of waterfowling, along with the blithering idiots who blaze away at anything within 90 yards.

Brent, don't pray at the altar of science - it's not as holy as you think. Sounds to me, you've taken the bait and now you want to peddle it around. Kind of like the anti-crowd does!
What else do you not like about hunting?
Dazzled by science, and fooled by the politicians BrentD.

Well boys I just finished 91 pages of a report, a link to which I will post here.

I think it only fair to have all that is interested in this debate to use this report for a base from which to argue the findings.

lead report, GOV.

If we can come to an agreement with the good professor Dr.Danielson, to use this as a point of our debate, then I for one am prepaired to debate.

How say you fellows?