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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 533 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 533 Likes: 2 |
Here's what I just received from Kent - Game Bore.
12 gauge bismuth 2 3/4", 1 1/16 ounce=9800psi, 1 1/4 ounce=10,000psi
12 gauge tungsten 2 3/4", 1 3/8 ounce=11400 psi, 1 1/4 ounce=9900psi,
12 gauge tungsten 3" are at 10,400psi and 11,300 psi
Would you use the bismuth 1 1/16 ounce in a Sterlingworth or Ithaca NID if the barrels were in good condition and of proper thickness?
Tom C
�There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.�
Aldo Leopold
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,718 Likes: 479
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,718 Likes: 479 |
9800 in a Sterlingworth or NID would not worry me. Ever wonder what AA 1 1/8 ounce heavy trap or 3 Dram Skeet load run pressure wise. Same or higher.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314 |
Tom: I found those loads on the website. Note the Bismuth is 2 1/2" 12g Bismuth 2 1/2 @ 1400 fps 1 1/16 oz. - 9800 psi; 1 1/8 oz. - 10,000 psi http://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12G-Gamebore-Bismuth 12g Tungsten Impact 2 3/4 @ 1400 fps, 1 1/4 oz. - 9900 psi; 1 3/8 oz. - 11400 psi http://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-impact 1 1/4 oz. and 1 3/8 oz. at 1400 fps will have substantial recoil, and I would not use those loads unless the head of the stock was glasbedded or CAed. Split down the middle Fox ready for staple and accraglas repair 
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314 |
The original 1922/1923 Western Cartridge Co. 12g 'Super-X Field', Peters Cartridge Company's 'High Velocity', United States Cartridge's 'Ajax Heavies Long-Range', and Remington's Kleanbore 'Nitro Express Extra Long Range' loads were all 2 3/4 inch, 1 1/4 oz., 3 3/4 Dram Eq. (1330 fps). Split down the middle NID 
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
I just don't understand why they max out these tungsten loads like this. Tungsten will kill just fine using pressures developed by the old lead waterfowl loads. Steel and bismuth need all they help they can get but not tungsten.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 533 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 533 Likes: 2 |
Short of reloading myself, what alternatives do I have for non-tox? I spoke to RST at the shoot in Medford, WI this summer and they said they were working on it but were no ready yet.
Drew - are you saying the 2.5", 1 1/16th ounce may be OK?
I have asked Rio and the two responses I recieved from them was that they were working on getting the info.
Tom C
�There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.�
Aldo Leopold
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,149 Likes: 1147
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,149 Likes: 1147 |
I just don't understand why they max out these tungsten loads like this. Tungsten will kill just fine using pressures developed by the old lead waterfowl loads. Steel and bismuth need all they help they can get but not tungsten. They are not marketing them for the few of us who shoot vintage doubles at ducks. They are trying to reach "the masses', who shoot ducks with gas operated jammamatics that need high pressures to to work reliably. Pressure is not the same as velocity. You can get velocity without extreme pressures. Velocity X mass, with enough density in the pattern, is what kills ducks. Pressure is meaningless as far as killing goes. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,984 Likes: 298
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,984 Likes: 298 |
Your best bet is have someone load for you with all new components.
There is nothing that can be done about old guns not responding well to heavy loads. You want to shoot 1.375 oz loads out of 100+ year old guns, and they are gonna break.
People say they don't, right up until they do. Then it's crickets, and a sub rosa stock job.
Out there doing it best I can.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,718 Likes: 479
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,718 Likes: 479 |
Factory loaded shells run high pressures to work automatics reliable in cold weather. Face facts we are 1% of the market for ammo makers so it does make sense for them to tailor loads to work the vast majority of guns in use. That is semi automatic guns like Remington, Beretta and Benelli not Fox, Lefever and Pakers.
Actual speed & pressure testing by Tom Armbrust some time ago.
3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/8 oz. Winchester Trap Load
1,202 fps 9,600 psi
AA Xtra-Lite 1 oz WAAL12
1189 fps 8000 psi
AA 'Low noise Low recoil' 15/16 oz
980 fps 6,200 psi
So can your gun handle regular 1 1/8 ounce 3 dram equiv. loads? If so that is a 9600 psi load so I would feel OK shooting 9800-10,000 loads in limited numbers. Heck what would a 1 3/8 ounce Winchester load in the day run more or less than that? More I suspect or is not more still in the same range.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314 |
Re: the 1 1/16 oz @ 1400 fps loads
Calculated recoil for a 7.5# gun with 1 oz. @ 1400 fps is 23.4 ft/lbs of free recoil
1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps, (3 Dram) 7.5 pound shotgun = 23.0 ft/lbs
From Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics by Wallace H Coxe; E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., 1927, a DuPont Oval Pamphlet, p.20. 1 1/4 oz. 3 3/4 Dr. Eq. (1330 fps) Super - X Field (introduced 1922) with DuPont Oval pressure was 10,640 psi
Calculated free recoil in a 7.5 gun is 31 ft/lbs
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