doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Alternees

Parker Grade 6 toplever hammergun with 6 Iron 'Turkish' and a remarkable 24 alternee.

For the three still interested it appears (about) 24 is the most common

Engines Of War: or, Historical and Experimental Observations on Ancient And Modern Warlike Machines And Implements, Including the Manufacture of Guns, Gunpowder, and Swords with remarks on Bronze, Iron, Steel, &c.
Henry Wilkinson, M.R.A.S. London 1841
p. 70 Part III On The Manufacture of Fire-Arms, And Modern Improvements.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0XJeF_oa3SMC
The iron called Damascus, from it�s resemblance to the celebrated Oriental barrels and sword blades, is now manufactured in great perfection in this country, as well as in France and Germany, and may be varied in fineness or pattern to almost any extent, according to the various manipulations it may undergo. One method is to unite, by welding 25 bars of iron and mild steel alternately, each about 2 feet long, 2 inches wide, and 1/4 of an inch thick; and having drawn the whole mass into a long bar, or rod, 3/8 of an inch square, it is then cut into proper lengths of from five to six feet; one of these pieces being made red hot is held firmly in a vice, or in a square hole, to prevent it from turning, while the other end is twisted by a brace, or by machinery, taking care that the turns are regular, and holding those parts which turn closer than others with a pair of tongs, the rod is by this means shortened to half it�s original length, and made quite round.

1851 Great Exhibition of the Industry of all Nations: Official Catalogue
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/1851_Great_Exhibition:_Official_Catalogue
Class VIII. Naval Architecture, Military Engineering, Guns, Weapons, etc.
200. WILKINSON & SON, 27 Pall Mall � Manufacturers.
A series of illustrations, showing the different stages of the manufacture of gun-barrels:
(A.) Horse-shoe nails, or stubs.
(B.) Old coach-springs, cut up by means of shears.
(C.) Scrap stub-iron.
(D.) A gun-barrel in its various stages, made of a mixture of stubs and steel (A. and D.), first twisted into a spiral, then partially welded by jumping, then completely welded, and the figure of the iron brought out by acids.
(E.) A bar of iron made from scrap (C), for Damascus twist.
(F.) A bar of steel, made from scrap (D.), for Damascus twist.
(G.) Twenty-one bars of iron and steel (E. and F.), packed alternately for welding
(H.) Twenty-one bars (G.) welded together.
(I.) A square rod made by drawing out the mass (H.) between rollers.
(J.) The square rod (I.) twisted round its own axis, and then flattened, showing the figure produced.
(K.) Specimen to show the manner in which the figure called Damascus twist is produced; two bars or rods (I.), are first twisted round their axis the whole length, the one to the right and the other to the left, then flattened and welded together, then twisted spirally to form the barrel as in (D.), partially welded by jumping, and the welding completed, filed at the end, and the figure produced.
(L.) A similar specimen, finer; composed of two bars of 48 alternations of iron and steel.
(M.) A similar specimen, composed of three smaller bars of 21 alternations.
(N.) A similar specimen, called "chain twist."
(O.) A similar specimen, called "steel Damascus."
(P.) A finished barrel, composed of seven different kinds of twist.

The Irish Industrial Exhibition of 1853: A Detailed Catalogue of Its Contents
John Sproule 1854
http://books.google.com/books?id=cNKl8YYZejsC
The process of making Damascus barrels is more complicated, as involving a greater number of stages. The strand in this case is composed of three or four twisted rods instead of two, and they are all generally twisted in one direction; but it is in the manufacture of the rods themselves that the essential difference consists. These are no longer stub iron or decarbonized steel, but are formed of from twenty to four-and-twenty alternate layers of iron and steel welded together.

The New American Cyclopaedia: A Popular Dictionary of General Knowledge
George Ripley, Charles Anderson Dana 1859
http://books.google.com/books?id=kL9PAAAAMAAJ
Greener describes the most perfect work of this kind as being done at Liege, Belgium. Alternate bars of iron and steel, 32 of each, are piled and rolled into a sheet 3/16 of an inch thick; this is then slit into 3 square rods, which are twisted till the lines resemble the threads of a fine screw, and 6 of these are placed together and welded into one. The figure produced is exceedingly fine�

Appleton's Dictionary of Machines, Mechanics, Engine-work, and Engineering, 1873
http://books.google.com/books?id=zi5VAAAAMAAJ
Gun Barrels
http://books.google.com/books?id=zi5VAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA936&dq
The iron called Damascus from its resemblance to the celebrated Oriental barrels and sword-blades, is now manufactured by welding 25 bars of iron and mild steel alternately, each about 2 feet long, 2 inches wide, and 1/4 of an inch thick�

De La Cononnerie Ou Fabrication des Canons de Fusil
By M. Ronchard-Siauve
http://books.google.com/books?id=uedDAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA202
Annales Soci�t� d'agriculture, industrie, sciences, arts et belles-lettres du d�partement de la Loire, 1864
http://books.google.com/books?id=uedDAAAAIAAJ
Turkish or Curly Damas
This Damas was invented first and is still one of most beautiful which can be made. One distinguishes two varieties from curly Damas: the large one and the small one. The piece to make large Damas is composed 35 to 40 alternees half iron half steel, one welds with the hammer as for the ruban, but then with the of place; to stretch in rods the pieces divided to make barrels directly of them; one stretches them beforehand out of square rods of 5 lines or 12 mm. on side.
The manufacture of the curly Damas always was improving at these last years, where the one managed to make of the Damas of a finess and of one r�gulant� really admirable. To obtain this result, nevertheless always about same manner is operated; only, one composes the pieces with some alternees of less and one makes the rods much thinner. For the Damas very fine, one reduces the rods in 2 square lines or 4 mm 1/2 of dimensioned, and the torsion of' is made; a perfect regularity; also to make the ribband, the five rods are put, and to obtain the wanted length from it, as far as is needed; with twenty-five rods of 5 feet or l meter, 65 length.

I believe there may be points that are overlooked a bit, and I believe some of your lab pictures support.

The various scrap materials that form the original bars or 'alternees' are forge drawn to some length. Point being that any inclusion or flaws are reduced in cross section and aligned lengthwise.

The process of layering and twisting dilutes and prevents any one flaw from influencing integrity of a final barrel. Forge welds are very different than today's stick or wire welds, and one would think the final possible weak point, or welds between the ribbands, would be well tested during proof.

Thanks for taking the time Doc Drew. Merry Christmas.

Thanks Craig
The energy dispersive x-ray spectroscopy (EDX) performed on the 2 Iron crolle specimen by METL suggested that element migration between the iron and steel occurred during the manufacturing process (heat and high pressure rolling and hammer welding multiple times); likely part of why the finished product performs like a mono-metal rather than a laminate. The chemical composition of the barrel was similar to AISI 1005 low alloy steel.

Y Feliz Navidad para todos los Caballeros aqui!

I'm just amazed that, even considering lower labor costs, these barrels could be produced at a cost that could make an affordable gun.Doc Drew, have you ever found any information on how many man hours went into producing an average set of Damascus barrels?

As always, many thanks for providing this fascinating info. Merry Christmas.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kCkuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1433&lpg
BRIEF SUBMITTED BY MANUFACTURERS OF DOUBLE-BARRELED BREECH-LOADING SPORTING SHOTGUNS.
Hunter Arms Co., Fulton, N. Y.; Baker Gun & Forging Co., Batavia, N. Y.; J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co., Chicopee Falls, Mass.; N. R. Davis & Sons, Assonet, Mass.; The H. & D. Folsom Arms Co., New York, N. Y.; The Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., Norwich, Conn.; Ithaca Gun Co., Ithaca, N. Y.; Lefever Arms Co., Syracuse, N. Y.; A. H. Fox Gun Co., Philadelphia, Pa.; Parker Bros., Meriden, Conn.; Meriden Fire Arms Co., Meriden, Conn.; The Harrington & Richardson Arms Co., Worcester, Mass.
Washington, D. C., January 10, 1913.
In support of continued tariff restrictions on finished double barrel shotguns.
The cost of production of a double-barreled shotgun here, as compared with the cost abroad, is more than double (the difference in cost being made up almost entirely in the difference of wages paid in Belgium as compared with the wages paid in the gun factories in the United States). We cite Belgium, as seven-eighths of the guns imported into the United States are from that country. Any material reduction of the present tariff would be the means of crippling or destroying the double shotgun industry.
To establish the fact of difference in wages we quote from Daily Consular and Trade Reports issued in Washington by the Government, dated August 31, 1912, page 1117, the following:
"The wages paid in the gunmaking industries in Belgium vary from 77 cents to 96 cents per day for the ordinary workmen, and from 96 cents to $1.54 for skilled workmen. In spite of a steady advance in the cost of living there was a tendency to reduce the scale of wagea of the workingmen employed in gunmaking."
And, according to data published by the Beligum Government in the Annuaire Statistique, which gives the official figures for 1910, shows the following daily wages:
"About 65 per cent of the men workers over 16 years earn less than 68 cents; of the women, 67 per cent earn lees than 39 cents, and 93 per cent less than 58 cents per day."
We mention the wage scale of women because a large percentage of work in Belgium gun factories is done by women and children. It is therefore a very conservative estimate if we assume that the wages paid in Belgium for this class of work is something less than one-third the wages paid for the same work in this country, and the cost of a gun manufactured in this country is composed of over 80 per cent labor.
For example:
A gun that costs the American manufacturer $20 to produce, represents: Material, $4; labor, $16; total, $20.
The same gun in Belgium would cost: Material, $4; labor, $5.33; total, $9.33.

The conversion of Belgian francs to U.S. dollars in 1900 was about 5 francs to 1 dollar. In Ferdinand Drissen's 1897-1898 price sheet, the complete charge for the replacement barrels and gunsmithing for '3 band Crolle' was 80 francs or about $16.
In 1900, Jean Lejeune of Nessonvaux listed the following prices for damascus barrels alone: 'Oxford'-16f, 'Boston'-10f ($2), and 'Birmingham'- 8f.
In 1914, Arthur Delvaux-Heuve of Nessonvaux offered '3 Band Boston' and 'Star' for 14 francs, likely before Germany invaded.

Lots of infro here, but no specific mention of how many hours went into producing a 'rough forged tube' or finished double barrel
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...DVe9ur3mCo/edit

I BET STEVE CULVER WOULD KNOW

Thanks for believing that I am so knowledgeable Drew! LOL! This question came up in another thread, some time back. Below is my response to it.

I've been doing some calculations on how long it would take to weld a twist damascus barrel. I've based my calculations on the barrel being made in the 1924 video. The process thus being timed is for a barrel in a 3 iron crolle pattern.

Mentioned earlier in this post was Lemoine's statement about barrels undergoing 300 heats. Examining the statement closely, I believe the 300 heats mentioned was actually for two barrels; 150 heats for each tube. Based on my recent calculations, 150 heats per tube may be slightly on the high end. Unless perhaps, Lemoine was also counting all of the heats required to process the damascus rod stock into a barrel.

Numerical calculations suggest that a 36 inch riband coil could be welded into a solid tube in about 50 heats; IF everything went perfectly. I think a fair estimate of the actual number of heats is closer to 100. This figure falls between the calculated minimum and the 150 heats given by Lemoine. So 100, is the number of heats that I used for the time estimates.

My calculations are based on all of the work going perfectly. The smith/smiths are at their best and working efficiently (not too many beers the night before). The forge fire is absolutely perfect and heating the metal in the shortest possible amount of time. Seldom do all of these things come together at once�..

I've started the calculations at the twisting of the damascus rods. Six rods would be required. The six rods would be welded into two ribands. The two ribands wound on a mandrel and scarf welded together near the center of the spiral coil. The coil then welded into a solid barrel tube.

Total time required to go from damascus rod stock to welded barrel tube; 11 1/2 hours.

Note that as there were two, or more, smiths working on a barrel at the same time, this equates to a total of 23 man hours.

These estimates are ONLY the actual amount of time that the material would be in the forge, or on the anvil. There is no time included for building the forge fire and the necessary maintenance of the fire during the entire forging process. No time is allowed for the smiths to take breaks/lunch. Also not included is the time for the oft mentioned cold hammering of the barrel tube to improve the metal. I expect the cold hammering process to take at least one hour per tube.

The above calculations also do not include foundry time required to make the iron and steel. Nor piling, welding and drawing the lopin out into rods to be used by the barrel smiths. It also does not include time required for boring, straightening, grinding and finishing of the barrels to display the damascus pattern. I could do a SWAG estimate of the time required for that work. But, it would be just that; a guess.

I suppose one could interpolate manufacturing time for Damascus barrels from Pete M's dvd on Damascus barrel making in Belgium.

Doc Drew, on your site under 'Belgian Damascus Trade' there is a reference to 2000 damascus barrel makers in the trade putting out approximately 600,000(300,000 pairs) barrels per year in the late 1800's (pg. 16). Working in teams of two, a thousand damascus barrel makers seem to have developed some higher degree of efficiency to put out the numbers that they did.