|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
5 members (Jem Finch, Marks_21, SKB, 2 invisible),
696
guests, and
6
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,506
Posts545,614
Members14,419
| |
Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,832 Likes: 13
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,832 Likes: 13 |
Come on, George Lander - could you post more guns on the FS board? All those listing seem a bit excessive - especially since all those guns are already on Gunsamerica.com.
And I don't think dealers are supposed to post their entire inventories there.
Am I wrong??
OWD
Last edited by obsessed-with-doubles; 06/29/07 04:31 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 39 Likes: 7
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 39 Likes: 7 |
He is a dealer. I just stumbled across his website when I googled "Leg of Mutton". http://www.mylandco.com/index.php?pageid=4
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
I wanted to see if there was any action on BuzzBee's short-stocked Merkel but couldn't find it. Somewhere out back of the See V. George B4U Buy operation I surmise. I got tired after 8 pages and gave up. That could be fixed with timely application of the Triple T.
jack
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 392
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 392 |
It's only 18 pages of his stuff only... GEEZ
Last edited by Dennis Wolfe; 06/29/07 05:09 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,583
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,583 |
I sent George a nice PM letting him know that we'd think more of his offerings if he became an advertizer with Dave and helped keep the board funded. Do the same and maybe he'll believe.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 221
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 221 |
Come on, George Lander - could you post more guns on the FS board? All those listing seem a bit excessive - especially since all those guns are already on Gunsamerica.com.
And I don't think dealers are supposed to post their entire inventories there.
Am I wrong??
OWD I think your wrong, I don't think George L. Has an FFL.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417 |
George L. does not have an FFL, nor does he have an import license, a machine gun license or a license to kill. He has a Real Estate Broker's license. That's it!
George L
To see my guns go to www.mylandco.com Select "SPORTING GUNS " My E-Mail palmettotreasure@aol.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,832 Likes: 13
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,832 Likes: 13 |
And you admitted to selling a bunch of guns, and to having been at it for a while, on a public forum?
That doesn't sound to good to me.
OWD
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
Why you guys pick'n on George....Dave said it was okay.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Having done a bit of exploration of the intent of the limited C&R "license", I can state with conviction that it does allow "direct" purchasing and shipment with intent to build a collection and presumably some "trading" (resale) but is quite explicit that "dealing" even solely in guns classified C&R is not permitted. No quantitative threshold for volume or frequency of sales which would constitute "dealing" is stated. Flying below the BATF radar (no FFL) may work for awhile but when found out, I don't think the "stealth" license or the appearance of injured innocence will be much of a shield against prosecution. Every man the arbitrer of his own abilities in skating over thin ice.
jack
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
The pre-98 guns require no forms or paper work...
they are below the BaTf rAdar are they not ?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,994 Likes: 402
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,994 Likes: 402 |
pre-98 is non gun under the law... no age requirement, backround check or FFL required.
Steve
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 221
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 221 |
Dern fellows, there sure seems to be a lot of sour apples about George L. Is this because he has more toys than the rest of you?
If it is OK with the site owner why can't you folks just let it alone?
I've always felt if you don't like the price of a fellows trade, then make him and offer, George L. is not WALMART. The worst he can do is say no.
I've always felt you can start high and hope for the best, it's looks funny when you try to go up in price.
Has anybody found out for sure that George L. is not a horse trader? If he is , he's got my respect.
I don't have any trade with FFL holders, for the most part they don't have what I want, The other part of that is, the majority do think they are WALMART.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 240
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 240 |
George L. does not have an FFL, nor does he have an import license, a machine gun license or a license to kill. He has a Real Estate Broker's license. That's it!
George L YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!! All those guns for sale on a commercial site and no FFL !!!!! ?????? If I were making any profit at all I would be seriously afraid of a visit from the ATF boys. Seems that I remember last year some guys here in the St. Louis area received just such a "visit" for being in the firearm business without a license. Yowswers.... What am I missing?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,832 Likes: 13
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,832 Likes: 13 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
I didn't suggest that George would be in the clear if he had a C&R license or that ALL his items are C&R eligible. Quite the contrary. What I didn't make clear is that the ATF is careful about which privileges they grant to collectors--at least in the boilerplate on the application. Not an end-run around an FFL. George does have what I termed a "stealth" license (none at all). It's not hard to foresee a determination which would find George an unlicenced dealer and his protestation to the contrary of very little weight. If you read carefully back thru this wrangle, Dave Weber has said much the same in the message containing the thumbsup on George selling here. A long rope hidden in the apparent benevolence.
jack
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,994 Likes: 402
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,994 Likes: 402 |
as long as a transfer is done through an FFL I'm thinking Mr. Lander should be fine.
Steve
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Posted by Dave Weber: I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt...
He replied to my email promptly and I believe his reply was sincere. In addition he assured me he would compensate me for any items sold off the BBS.
I am surprised at the number of firearms he has...I have an FFL and have never had that many items in inventory...ever! Also, if he has been doing this for years...with out an FFL? Well, that would eventually come around to bite him in the butt. jack
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015 |
From what I understand he does not have "any" FFL,neither a 01FFL (dealer) or 03FFL (C&R).
If he is buying guns with the intent to resell at a profit then he needs a 01 Dealer license.
If he is buying guns for his "own personal collection" and they are either on the list or 50 years old and,again,is NOT buying them with the intent to resell at a profit then he needs a 03 FFL collector license.
Simple stuff and not worth a visit from the guys in the black Suburbans to mess around (they are NOT anything like "ladies" at the Real Estate Commission!).
Last edited by Dave K; 07/07/07 01:26 PM.
Hillary For Prison 2018
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 227
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 227 |
18 USC 922(a)(1)(A).
Last edited by dbadcraig; 07/07/07 01:19 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 377
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 377 |
Just visited his site, and as he says, he is a real estate broker, period. He does have some nice firearms as well as other antiques. The firearms are not all pre-1898. I do not know how/whose FFL he uses, but as I read mine and the rules, he must be using someones or the "Big Black Suburbans" will certaily pay him a very nasty visit. Best, Dr. BILL
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 221
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 221 |
You mean I can't buy a gun from George L. if he doesnt have an ffl?
So let me get this straight in my mind, that the private sell of firearms between two individuals is not legal without an ffl? Is that correct?
This is asinine!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Simple stuff and not worth a visit from the guys in the black Suburbans to mess around (they are NOT anything like "ladies" at the Real Estate Commission!).
If that statement doesn't prove prophetic, then there are an awful lot of licensed dealers who are also silly fools. jack
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 240
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 240 |
You mean I can't buy a gun from George L. if he doesnt have an ffl?
So let me get this straight in my mind, that the private sell of firearms between two individuals is not legal without an ffl? Is that correct?
This is asinine! Big Al, of course private individuals can sell guns occasionally (within the same state, no selling to a private individual in another state under any circumstance). What they can't do is go into the gun business without an FFL. When you buy the inventory of an FFL (to help them out) and then attempt to sell that inventory at a profit it sure looks like you are in the business of selling firearms. Especially if you are selling from a business premise using a commercial site. etc. etc. There is no clear line to distinguish a private individual from dealer. However if the guys in the Suburbans think you have crossed that line it could get very expensive trying to convince them that you have not. Seems it would be much better to save the worries and get an FFL. from the atf website. How many firearms must be sold in order to be considered “engaged in the business?”
The GCA does not identify or define a specific number of firearms that a person can sell or transfer before they must obtain an FFL. The GCA does, however, establish definitions that determine whether or not a person is required to have an FFL before engaging in certain firearms-related activities. Specifically, if an individual is engaged in the business of buying and selling firearms, he or she will be required to have an FFL.
The GCA defines “engaged in the business” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(C) as:
“a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms”
Therefore, if a person is devoting time, attention, and labor to engaging in firearms sales as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit, they would be considered to be “engaged in the business” and would consequently be required to have an FFL. Neither ATF nor the courts have identified a specific number of firearms that would establish the need for a license. However, if the intent underlying the sale of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, then a license must be obtained or the unlicensed individual will be in violation of 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(1)
Last edited by erik meade; 07/07/07 04:32 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 221
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 221 |
I don't want to spend endless hours and try to explain this to you, Federal Law only applies to Government employees in Federal territory.
The limits on what Federal territory ended and is stated in Federal law as of January 1946. Unless you are in Washington DC or on Federal property That was declared as such as of January 1946, I would not worry to much about it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
Ok guys I for one admit I'm jellous of Georges Hammer guns....
The personal stuff about a guys business shouldn't be posted on a forum.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Might take more time than you've got, Al. When you've gotten thru to dumbies like us, then you can take on the FTC, FDA, FCC, ICC, INS, IRS and other lightweights with no jurisdiction. Even the Constitution could be construed as having some bearing on what the average citizen is allowed to do rather than as an excuse for frightening dogs and horses and burning down houses.
jack
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015 |
Ok Al,
so we just just say,"your honor I don't have time to explain this to you but...."
Yea thats going to work out just fine !Bet the prison have lots of guys with that line.
Hillary For Prison 2018
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 240
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 240 |
Thank you for clearing that up BIG AL. And here I thought that I had read that ATF actions in the past actually have led to fines and imprisonment for non-federal employees. I must have been confused.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417 |
Boy! Jack has a way with words.
George L
To see my guns go to www.mylandco.com Select "SPORTING GUNS " My E-Mail palmettotreasure@aol.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 221
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 221 |
One of the neat thing about Administrative law is it vary precise as to who is responsible for a rule. Hidden in the rule you will find buried the definition of who they are referring to. "All Persons" is to broad. Just know this that a properly executed pleading on "Subject matter jurisdiction" Stops or at least sets the judge and prosecution up for federal prosecution. The heart of Administrative law is deception! Of course you had no way of knowing that your elected reps had no power to take away any right, that would have involved common sense to know that. Public education frowns on common sense, that's why it is so uncommon. I feel the best you can say at least, for myself is, "I'm only responsible for my own ignorance". 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417 |
For you sea lawyers out there I would like to address the question made concerning my FFL or lack thereof. As Bill pointed out, not all of my guns are pre-1898, however, many are. These are the ones that I enjoy the most. As to those which are post-1898, of course I buy & sell those through an FFL holder who is a friend and to whom I pay a small fee for handling the paperwork.
Of course I checked with the BATF many years ago to determine what my duties were. I communicate with them regularly today on importation and other questions. I JUST LIKE TO COLLECT, BUY, SELL AND TRADE OLD DOUBLE GUNS AND NO, I AM NOT WAL-MART. MY PRICES ARE NOT WRITTEN IN STONE & I LOVE TO TRADE!
George L
Thanks for the support Big Al & others
To see my guns go to www.mylandco.com Select "SPORTING GUNS " My E-Mail palmettotreasure@aol.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417 |
For you sea lawyers out there I would like to address the question made concerning my FFL or lack thereof. As Bill pointed out, not all of my guns are pre-1898, however, many are. These are the ones that I enjoy the most. As to those which are post-1898, of course I buy & sell those through an FFL holder who is a friend and to whom I pay a small fee for handling the paperwork.
Of course I checked with the BATF many years ago to determine what my duties were. I communicate with them regularly today on importation and other questions. I JUST LIKE TO COLLECT, BUY, SELL AND TRADE OLD DOUBLE GUNS AND NO, I AM NOT WAL-MART. MY PRICES ARE NOT WRITTEN IN STONE & I LOVE TO TRADE!
George L
Thanks for the support Big Al & others
To see my guns go to www.mylandco.com Select "SPORTING GUNS " My E-Mail palmettotreasure@aol.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 377
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 377 |
George,
Thanks for setting the record straight-not that you owe anyone, except the BATF&E, an explanation. You truly do have a few pieces that got me looking! Best, Dr. BILL
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,994 Likes: 402
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,994 Likes: 402 |
I too think our armchair laywers went a bit overboard.....but hey, its the internet right? George has a gun I like too....might have to see what I have to trade.
Steve
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 240
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 240 |
Speaking as an armchair lawyer you can make your own choices. Being from the St. Louis area I can say that these guys also liked to collect, buy, sell and trade guns. Still dealing that often without a license caused them a good bit of headache. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=42686I guess what I do not understand is why anyone would go to the trouble of getting an FFL if it is perfectly fine to run a gun business without one. Surely almost all dealers love guns and love to buy and sell them. And probably most of them collect them?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,703 Likes: 103
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,703 Likes: 103 |
Of course there is always the possibility tha George L is an undercover BATF&E guy himself, setting up innocent would-be purchasers in an illegal sale sting. After all, he has pretty near blocked up Dave's little For Sale feature to prevent us actual collectors and casual sportsmen from unloading the odd antique JABC and by his own words admits regular communication with the Feds. Mighty suspicious...Geo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Rather unlikely, I think. I queried Mr. Lander concerning his 12e V.S. and he responded (tailed onto one of our "discussions") that he had responded (didn't say where). No private message and no email to the e-addy I gave him so he's not in a hurry. Neither am I. :] When I pay to provide an FFL receiver for purchase, I've done my duty. I may speculate but I have no means of ascertaining that anyone is operating outside the law. I doubt if I would suffer any loss unless I purchased a stolen gun.
jack
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,703 Likes: 103
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,703 Likes: 103 |
I was only joking about George L being a G-Man. He has a couple of guns up that I might be interested in too...Geo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417 |
Jack: The Victor Sarasqueta 12E that you asked about came from the same friend that I purchased the stock of H&K Fabarms & Sig/ Battista Rizzinis from (who is now in hospice care). I may have been mistaken about having responded to your enquiry. I have had several calls about this gun. I was told by someone that I believed to be an expert that it is a 12E. However someone else who also claimed to be an expert said that it was a 7E. If you, or someone else who is knowledgeable on this maker, could look at the photos on my web site & tell me for sure. I don't want to misrepresent the grade.
George L
To see my guns go to www.mylandco.com Select "SPORTING GUNS " My E-Mail palmettotreasure@aol.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 428
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 428 |
With regard to Eric's accurate post, most of the St. Louis area "BATF Gun Busts" were for selling post-1898 guns off-paper without meeting the fed or state requirements. And most of the prosecuted cases involved HANDGUN SALES in violation of BOTH Missouri and federal laws.
Missouri law historically has required a sheriff's permit for handgun purchase. However, that law was recently terminated by the state legislature, with much assistance from the NRA.
I don't know of any locals prosecuted for selling a few personal long guns. Generally, Missouri is a gun-friendly state, and law enforcement personnel don't harass gun owners.
Jerry Goldstein
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Here's a grade 7 from 1952. Name not engraved in field on the bar. Fences different; No. 7 not scalloped. No engraving except band on barrels. The transition of your rib from square-shouldered to radiused [?] is not the appearance of the rib in this pic when it's a huge bitmap. I don't have the faintest notion what grade your gun is. Weiland's book shows a grade 12 w/ pierced toplever. I don't even know if that's typical or a hors de categorie flourish for a special customer. jack 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
I believe Geo. Lander is on safe ground. The BATF definition of "dealer" includes the litmus: ". . . substantial portion of income derived from" the activity which might or might not make him a de facto "dealer". This is also an area which is none of my business but I'll bet Geo. fails with flying colors as I've never seen him sell a gun.
jack
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417 |
Jack: Since I've never seen you & you've never seen me it's a safe bet that you've never seen me sell a gun. I alwas thought litmus was paper. (Just Kidding)
George L
To see my guns go to www.mylandco.com Select "SPORTING GUNS " My E-Mail palmettotreasure@aol.com
|
|
|
|
|
