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Forums10
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Apr 27th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,149 Likes: 1147
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,149 Likes: 1147 |
I thinks it's tough because subjective attributes vary so much between one to another. A 32" barreled double may handle, for difficult to pinpoint reasons, better than the 30" pump or auto loader that some of us started off with, or have some familiarity with the guns that worked so well at the clays range. Only thoughts is all.
What is so hard to agree on is the "handling". That 32" double may indeed handle fine to someone who shoots heavier guns that have a slight weight-forward bias, because he is accustomed to that feel. But, a grouse or quail hunter who had searched his whole life for lighter and lighter guns, with 25-26" barrels, may find it terribly slow and clumsy. Don's data gives numbers that allow us to compare two or more guns and find one that matches, or nearly matches, the numbers on another gun we are already accustomed to handling. Then, the new gun will feel almost identical to us when we pick it up, barrel lengths notwithstanding. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 757 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 757 Likes: 114 |
Rocketman, I mean NO disrespect to your work and I certainly don't doubt math and physics. But as we are human there is not much quantification that can overcome confidence. The confidence of "feels right," whether it should, or does, or is simply believed because we like a feature is a very strong advantage. With almost 20 years in Pro Racing I see it everyday. Driver confidence will trump ( or ruin) the measurement of a set up the majority of the time. Of course it all needs to work to get the true last percent but most of us aren't 99 shooters anyway. Objective, though far more frustrating for the crew, can be just as valuable as subjective
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350 |
I'd have a hard time convincing---no, I couldn't---my duck hunting buddies that there's an advantage of inches over 30 because most shoot from blinds and manoeuvring a 30 to standing position particularly with others in the blind is a focussed movement at the best of times. (Having said that, there's no doubt in my mind that I shoot better in the blind with a heavier gun. Close upland another thing.)
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,463 Likes: 212
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,463 Likes: 212 |
I'd have a hard time convincing---no, I couldn't---my duck hunting buddies that there's an advantage of inches over 30 because most shoot from blinds and manoeuvring a 30 to standing position particularly with others in the blind is a focussed movement at the best of times.... The thing I have noticed though, is that 28" or 30" pumps or auto loaders, and their length, are normally not thought of as a disadvantage in the blind. The long sxs's may be given the brush off because there aren't a bunch around, even if someone's looking for one. Then, there's feeding them if it's better to steer clear of the common nontox shells.
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 70
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 70 |
32" 12ga Juan Uriguen 
Last edited by fla3006; 12/03/16 01:54 PM.
Hunt with vintage classics.
The right of the people to keep & bear arms shall not be infringed.
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 753
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 753 |
[lThe long sxs's may be given the brush off because there aren't a bunch around, even if someone's looking for one. Then, there's feeding them if it's better to steer clear of the common nontox shells. They are around. But I find most have been well used - which may speak to their effectiveness. If you want them for waterfowl, plan on reloading. I stock up when I see Kent TM when I can. But that needs the stouter barrels and longer chambers of the dedicated duck guns 3 frame Parker's -Fox HE, Smith Longrange and such. IMHO Otherwise. Short shells in lighter loads
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
When there is an objective discussion the subjective discussion has a foundation and is much more meaningful. Guns are solid objects that obey the laws of physics.....
....With that as a foundation (how the gun is) we can have a more meaningful discussion as to how we as individual shooters react to guns with various handling measurements.... Can you give an example of a gun that falls in the middle of the various physics parameters that you have measured? Yes, I can. Holloway & Co. (Thomas Naughton was master of the shop) Pigeon Special (Australia export) SLE, 32" bbls, 14 3/4" LOP, weight = 7# 15 1/2 oz (1/2 oz under maximum allowed for a pigeon gun weight), balance = 5 7/8" in front of front trigger, unmounted swing effort = 2.40, mounted swing effort = 9.70, and compactness = 11.82. This is a heavy pigeon gun and can be described subjectively as weight forward, slow between the hands, and slow from the shoulder. A faster gun of the same weight would be a W-W M-21 Skeet BLE with 26" bbls and LOP of 15 3/4", weight = 8# 1 oz, balance = 3 3/8", unmounted = 1.89, mounted = 8.27, and compactness = 10.42. It is a heavy 'lil mudder with aft balance and upper end of normal swings. On the other side of the Holloway we can find an Ithaca NID Trap BLE with 32" bbls, 15 3/4" LOP, weight = 9# 2 oz, balance = 5 1/2", unmounted = 2.95, mounted = 11.73, and compactness = 12.24. This one is very heavy, forward balance, and very slow/ponderous/steady/ stately swings.
For those saying, "No, no, no, I told you so!" consider Woodward BLE Light Pigeon with 30" OE bbls sleeved to 32", 15 1/2" LOP, 7# 8 oz, 4 3/4" balance, 2.21 unmounted and 8.65 mounted. This gun is toward the bottom end of heavy, has neutral balance, and middlin' slow swings. Duck gun for sure.Without being able to measure other's guns, can you give likely scenarios on how 32" barreled guns start to vary from an average? As follows. As barrel weight and length goes up, balance moves forward and swings get slower. As stocked action weight and length goes up balance moves rearward and swings get slower. The further the barrel balance (barrels only) is from the assembled gun balance, the more influence the barrels will have on balance and swing effort. The same principle applies to the stocked action. I thinks it's tough because subjective attributes vary so much between one to another. Very true. The physical strength, muscle speed, and shooting style are critical to gun handling fit. A 32" barreled double may handle, for difficult to pinpoint reasons, better than the 30" pump or auto loader (add 4-5" for the action to the barrel length) that some of us started off with, or have some familiarity with the guns that worked so well at the clays range. Only thoughts is all. Hope this helps. Questions? My take on the original question is shoot what fits you, what you shoot well, and what you enjoy shooting. If you find a gun that fits all three of these ---- never, but never, sell it! DDA
Last edited by Rocketman; 12/03/16 03:59 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Rocketman, I mean NO disrespect to your work and I certainly don't doubt math and physics. But as we are human there is not much quantification that can overcome confidence. The confidence of "feels right," whether it should, or does, or is simply believed because we like a feature is a very strong advantage. With almost 20 years in Pro Racing I see it everyday. Driver confidence will trump ( or ruin) the measurement of a set up the majority of the time. Of course it all needs to work to get the true last percent but most of us aren't 99 shooters anyway. Objective, though far more frustrating for the crew, can be just as valuable as subjective Mark, none taken. I try to always note that the math and physics only tell us how the gun, itself, "IS." How any "IS" will fit any individual shooter is another story. Think of handling fit in the same category as stock dimensions fit. Knowing the dimensions from a try gun stock can be turned into a specification for the stocker. DDA
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,984 Likes: 298
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,984 Likes: 298 |
I have a number of 32" guns. Light and Heavy.
There are many differences I notice when shooting such a broad selection of guns.
And if I put them on Don's spinner, the numbers would bear it all out.
A game gun demands a dynamic style. Fast to start, fast to stop. A heavy fowler a more deliberate push. A ligtweight 32" 12 seems to "slash" through the bird at distance.
I hold all my 12's at the forend tip, so any differences in swing speed are due to mass, not mount.
It's a challenge moving from gun to gun, and changing shooting style each time. Part of the fun for me.
And when I touch off 1 1/4oz heavy loads, I'm glad I'm carrying the extra mass of the heavy guns.
Don's method is so exacting, anyone can dial in exactly what they shot best, and also what they like.
There are times when what "feels good" isn't what will bring more game to bag.
Out there doing it best I can.
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and added here