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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
Fewer and fewer users. To add insult to injury the prices for their new guns are same on used prices for very good Italian guns and English guns. It's tough to compete with "English speakers and mafia movies plus spaggetti & meatballs". While I do not many appreciate fine Spanish wine, olives, red oranges, and aged cheeses.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
The combined effect of EU firearms, environmental and agricultural regulations have shrunk the gun trade and are in part responsible for failures such as that of Arrieta.
In their antigun fervour the EU legislators did not notice that one (among many other) effect of their regulation was to deny gun owners even elementary consumer protection.
Sending an unaccompanied gun across EU borders, even for judicially endorsed warranty work, is so hard as to be practically impossible. The situation is symptomatic of regulations in other areas, ie establishing a shooting range, dog tail docking, consumption of game meat, the list is endless.
The end result is a poacher's paradise and a buraucrat's dream.
Slowly but surely they're winning. It might take years or even decades, but they'll win. Lack of orders, more like lack of enthusiasm, more like, 'Why bother." But I'm not only blaming Europe, look at our creeping in gun laws in more and more States.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,688 Likes: 31
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,688 Likes: 31 |
Stan,
For your information in 1988 Beretta were a major shareholder in Perazzi that saved them from going broke , plus they have had a number of hiccoughs since 1988 'skin of the teeth ' comes to mind.
Anglo Spanish Imports (ASI) UK was founded by two wealthy farming brothers who wanted a Holland & Holland Royal , but didn't like the price or the delivery / build time , so they took one to Spain to AyA and their new gun was delivered 5 weeks later. Since then the AyA No1 & No2 have been stalwarts of British shooting community.EJ Churchill, William Evans , William Powell old name famous English gunmakers are now having guns made in Spain.
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 969 Likes: 38
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 969 Likes: 38 |
"there isn't much that can be improved on either design of SXS gun, assuming it is a well built copy."
I will mention a few things that could have been introduced to improve the two basic designs, the boxlock and sidelock SXS:
Replaceable hook and bite "shoes" to bring the barrels back on face when they inevitably shake loose. They would also facilitate extra barrel fitting.
Easily replaceable barrel tubes in properly dimensioned monoblocs to avoid the sleeving or rebarreling dilemma.
Stock bolting to facilitate servicing and restocking the boxlock.
Reinventing the ribs for less weight and unseen rust.
Doing away with V springs.
All are innovations that would not change the "character" of the SXS. They would make owning a SXS so much easier, and cheaper. No maker could overcome the inertia of simple and inexpensive copycatting, now they are reaping the results of that inertia. The Arrieta situation is a symptom.
Last edited by Shotgunlover; 04/12/17 04:23 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,173 Likes: 1159
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,173 Likes: 1159 |
They just don't have the innovation and vision that the Italians do. They're content to copy. That can only last so long.
SRH Stan, If you compare a Beretta S series from the 1950s to a Silver Pig, about the only inovation you will clearly see is that far fewer human hands built the pig, and they were less skilled hands, at that. If you try to compare an ASEL from the 1950s, you will find that Beretta doesn't build anything that compares to it, and hasn't for some time. Internally, there hasn't been any revolution in Beretta boxlock O/Us that I am aware of. The Spanish built copies of A&D boxlocks and Holland pattern sidelocks that ranged from middling to spectacular. I'm going to guess that the average buyer for a type of gun like that isn't looking for a bunch of "innovation" but, wants a sound copy of the same tried and true English versions of either of those guns. If I could afford to place an order at Purdeys or Hollands (I can't) I wouldn't be looking for any innovation. I want it to look pretty much like they did from between the wars. How many people, at this late date, are actually in the market for either a new Spanish or English pattern boxlock, or sidelock? It is a diminishing number. I think it a bit unfair to say it is simple lack of innovation that doomed the Spanish gun. There are many factors involved, and I seriously doubt many of their clients from the past expected innovation from the standard pattern copies of the English SXS guns they had produced for so long. Some may have asked for (and, got) choke tubes or steel shot proof, but, there isn't much that can be improved on either design of SXS gun, assuming it is a well built copy. Best, Ted When I said innovation and vision I meant as opposed to copying designs of others. Which of Beretta guns are direct copies of other companies' guns? I do not know of any. As to the 1950s guns being the same design as today, nothing wrong with staying with a design that works great and that lasts. The opposite of that is Ford. Though I run Ford trucks on the farm, it infuriates me how they constantly change things on their trucks instead of sticking with something tried and true. Lack of innovation and vision isn't the only thing that is causing the demise of the great Spanish unmaking industry, but I believe it was a large part of it. Changing with the times and using technology instead of man hours to build guns was not a bad thing for the industry in general. To those who had rather lay claim to a hand built gun, I can see that it is an anathema. Hand built guns are fine, if that's what you want, but they come at a cost most of the world will never pay. I'd rather see a company change with the times, as many such as Beretta has, than become insolvent because they can't sell their products for what they need to, to make a profit. As long as the Italians turn out O/U guns as good as most of them are, more power to the CNC machines. Take a look in the English gunmakers' shops and you'll see more and more machines replacing action filers, barrel borers, etc. There is really no other sensible choice for them. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
One needs to look at typical modern gun buyer to see the situation. Most modern shooters come from "blue collar" backgrounds far removed from fancy custom grade SxS stuff. When it comes to more expensive guns to them pinnacle of form and function are represented by either O/U or self-loading shotgun. I have joned them by buying my first semi-auto. While most would pick 12ga or 20ga I went for grandpas 16ga. While not as versatile as 12ga it is kind of kool like old cars with glorious sounding horns and chromed bumpers. When I asked Englishman shopping at US gun store about English game guns. Those made are just for the wealthy classes. For me end of what we used to love as old USA ended when Walmart came to every small town. I have now re-institued by New Years resolution not to shop at Walmart.
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 308
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 308 |
Although some might consider it heresy, my opinion is that the Spaniards should have added factory choke tubes 15-20 years ago, when the rest of the world did so...
gold40
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
Although some might consider it heresy, my opinion is that the Spaniards should have added factory choke tubes 15-20 years ago, when the rest of the world did so...
gold40 They did in late 80s in certain models (most game guns had fixed chokes) of Ugartechea made for Parker Hale. I have seen two samples. One 12ga game gun with straight grip w/checkered butt plus choke tubes second was 10ga PG rubber recoil pad choke tubes. Some Zabalas for American Arms? also came with choke tubes.
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