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#477841 04/14/17 03:16 PM
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Gents,

Opinions, please, as to these two patterns. ** Paging Dr. Drew Hause **





First is... 3-Iron Turkish? Oxford? (Please explain the nuances of which and why.)

Second is... American Flag? Are the "stars" not defined enough to be flag? What, then?

Thx for thoughts,

- Nudge

Nudge #477843 04/14/17 04:15 PM
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The best part of impersonating a Damascus pattern nomenclature authority is that there is no one living to explain how confused I am wink

Long version
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IHGMMB82PAgFIzHTeoepYvzzE1uqDZSC_MTWH8vv0fE/edit

We'll start at the bottom barrels, which are "Washington", Ferlacher Austria, or Bresilien.

The lopin is the 3rd on the bottom and note there is no 'star'



"American Flag" or "Star" is the first lopin, with a 'star'



Finished 3 iron "American Flag"



2 Iron "Washington"; no 'stars'



BUT Etoile' (star) and Remington 'Etoile 3.B.P.' had TINY stars within the scrolls



Which is different from "Turkish Star" which had alternating black (steel) and white (iron) 'stars' BETWEEN the scrolls

4 Iron "Turkish Star"




Nudge #477844 04/14/17 04:28 PM
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The top barrels are a little messy so about the best description is 3 Iron Damas Crolle'

“Oxford”, “London”, Damas Anglais, Damas fer de clous in Belgium and Ferlacher Hufnagel Damast in Austria are Fine Alternee, Large (2 Iron) or Medium (3 Iron) Scroll, Asymmetric, Annular Crolle

3 Iron "Oxford"



“Turkish” or Damas Crolle Turc ou Frise', Turkischer Damask, generic “Best Damascus” in England, and most ‘Fine’ and ‘Extra-fine’ Three and Four Iron patterns used by US makers is a Fine Alternee, Small Scroll, Symmetric, Annular Crolle
See http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_221fst4kndq

Parker Dam4 4 Iron "Turkish"



Parker 6 Iron "Turkish"




Nudge #477848 04/14/17 05:26 PM
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It's more difficult with British guns, likely wearing Belgian tubes, but without the creative naming. The British just went with 2 Stripe, 3 Stripe, and British Best. Both these are courtesy of Stephen Helsley
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20258609

Three Rod English Best "Oxford"
William Powell & Son 12b Bar-in-Wood hammer gun SN 7193 sold in 1880. The ledger describes the barrels as being "best damascus."



Three Rod English Best "Turkish"
William Powell & Son 16b Boxlock sold in 1886. The Powell ledger also states..."best damascus barrels."


Nudge #477849 04/14/17 05:31 PM
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Neither Parker nor Hunter Arms were especially creative either

Parker: The 1899 Catalog lists:
“Fine English Twist” on Quality T, S, R, P & N (and later as an option on VH guns)
“Fine Laminated Steel” on Quality I & H
“Fine Damascus” on Quality G, F, E, & D
“Fine Bernard” on Quality C
“Extra Fine Damascus” on Quality B
“Finest Damascus” on Quality A
See http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=19025099 for examples.

Post-1892 LC Smith:
F grade hammer gun: “English Stub Twist”
Quality No. 0 & 1: “Good Two Rod Damascus”
Quality No. 2, 3, 4 & A1: “Good Four Stripe Chain Damascus”
Quality No. 3, Pigeon, 4 and A1: “Fine Three Rod Damascus”
Quality No. 5: “Very Fine Damascus”,
Monogram: “Finest Three Rod Damascus”
A2: “Choice Three Rod Herring Bone Pattern.”
See http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?p=999&gid=17116222

But it really gets complicated with Remington which graded the Damascus barrels on Model 1894 guns as follows:
A Grade: “Two stripe Damascus” (Boston and Oxford)
B Grade: “Three stripe Damascus” (Oxford 4 S.J. and Chain J)
C Grade: “Finer Damascus” (Etoile and Washington)
D Grade: “Very fine Damascus” (Chine and Legia)
E Grade: “Finest Damascus” (Peiper and Ohonon)
See http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_72xs856hdf

And Lefever also used LOTS of different patterns
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18020839

Nudge #477855 04/14/17 05:55 PM
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And BTW we're STILL waiting for one of our British correspondents to find the British Damascus Rosetta Stone wink
Yes, I have tried the Birmingham Proof House and the Birmingham Museum of Science and Industry. There are other museums in the Midlands I have not tried. Paul Stevens is keeping his eyes open also.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tXvObBOfgGpOKTh_jkttPcH1lKd--bfHY_sIjmr8uy8/edit

Nudge #477861 04/14/17 07:01 PM
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Dr. Drew,

You ARE the best.

These are both Lefevers, the top set have British proofs...the bottom set have Belgian "LLH."

So are you calling the top set 3-Iron Turkish or Crolle? And what on Earth is the difference?

- Nudge

Nudge #477862 04/14/17 07:19 PM
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How 'bout a sorta messy "Turkish" smile and is that the original contrast?!?
Any pattern with scrolls is crolle'

1890 F grade 3 Iron "Turkish" - ROUND (mostly) symmetric scrolls



1890 F grade 3 Iron "Oxford" - OBLONG asymmetric scrolls




Nudge #477863 04/14/17 07:23 PM
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A Lefever 20g GE "American Flag" (with the 'stars')


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Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
And BTW we're STILL waiting for one of our British correspondents to find the British Damascus Rosetta Stone wink


Only if you tell us how Pieper managed to get his name in the pattern smile


Rust never sleeps !
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