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Ken61 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: DAM16SXS
Originally Posted By: Ken61
Remember, they ordered specific ribband patterns from the rolling mills.



Please enlighten.... What is a "rolling mill"?




http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=477972&page=1

Here's the thread that discusses it. I suspect the mills produced the "irons" made from the stacked "billets". These were in the untwisted form. I think the barrel forgers twisted and combined the Irons into the actual Ribband before forging them around the Mandrel.

Regards
Ken

Last edited by Ken61; 06/14/17 12:31 PM.

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Ken61 Offline OP
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Keith,

Here's a section of 2-iron English Laminated tubes that were etched with Sulfuric Acid, neutralized, then oiled. No rusting, and the pattern is highly visible. I suspect the rough tubes were shipped and received by the Makers in this state.




Eventually, I colored the section in Brown & White.



Then, I colored them Black & White. They're obviously one of the sections I use for experimentation.




Regards
Ken

Last edited by Ken61; 06/14/17 01:43 PM.

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Ken, I have seen the use of a drop of sulfuric acid in a hidden place such as the action flats to identify whether reblued or heavy patina barrels are Damacsus or not. By the way, that test sections look very nice, both in the brown and white, and black and white finishes.

Originally Posted By: DAM16SXS

Please enlighten.... What is a "rolling mill"?


A rolling mill is the machinery used to roll steel, aluminum, copper, or other metals into various shapes... depending upon the configuration of the rolls. There are many variations of rolling mills, but all depend upon some source of power to drive the rolls. The top and bottom rolls rotate in opposite directions to pull the material through the rolls of the mill. Rolling mills for pipe or round bars will typically use a series of three rolls 120 degrees apart to drive rolls which are shaped to produce a cylindrical shape. The material is fed into these rolls, and they are squeezed down under enormous pressure and typically reduced in thickness while at the same time increasing in length and/or width. In a flat roll mill, a 20-25 ft. long slab may result in a coil of flat rolled steel hundreds of feet long. The separation of the rolls is adjustable by the use of massive screw-downs that raise or lower the rolls by moving the bearing chocks on the roll necks up or down. A mill may consist of one set of rolls mounted in massive cast iron mill "stands", or multiple "stands" may be set up in series to provide several steps of reduction.

Modern steel rolling mills may develop 900 metric tons of force or more, and may be driven by a series of motors developing 10-20,000 horsepower or more. Early rolling mills used water or steam power to turn the rolls. The material may be first heated red hot to 1800-1950 degrees F, which makes it softer, so more reduction is possible per pass. This is called hot rolling of course. Cold rolling results in much less reduction, and the enormous force changes the grain structure of the steel. Cold rolled steel is usually "pickled" in acid before rolling to remove mill scale so that the scale formed during hot rolling is not rolled into the surface. Rolled-in scale is considered a defect that will also quickly dull any cutting tools used to eventually machine or cut the steel. Annealing, a long slow heating to above critical temperature followed by a slow controlled cooling, is often necessary to relieve the stresses or work hardening caused by the rolling process.

In the production of ribbands for Damascus barrels, layers of iron and steel were stacked in differing alternating layers, both horizontally and vertically, to produce the final pattern. These billets were heated to a welding temperature and forge welded into a solid mass. This process was eventually mechanized by doing the forge welding with rolling mills instead of hammers or powered trip hammers. This speeded up a very labor intensive hand forging process and resulted in more uniformity. These flat rolled strips, were then twisted and forged welded or rolled with other strips to produce ribbands which were then forge welded around a mandrel to produce a rough Damascus tube. My description of the process is very abbreviated, incomplete, and simplified for brevity. You can look at these links for much more information on this fascinating process that was used to produce gun barrels before we had the technology to make homogeneous bars of gun barrel steel and to do deep hole drilling.

http://www.damascus-barrels.com/index.html

https://www.theexplora.com/the-making-of-best-damascus-barrels/

http://www.hallowellco.com/damascus_twist_barrels.htm



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I wonder if the acid wash/treatment of the relatively rough tubes was to remove forge scale. It may have been a way for the smith to quickly scan for defects. Forge scale can also be pretty tough and the various rough machiners may have preferred that it was removed first. I wonder what acid treating would do just before shipping, I don't know, maybe it was better around an ocean environment, but?

I would guess that a basic pattern might, or might not, be seen, but to be discriminating about it, I'd think tubes would have to be brought to a relatively high surface finish, before etching, to see the pattern. Truly special order tube sets, or standard pattern extra fine sets, would probably have to be kept paired from the original forging shop, through the whole process.

I wouldn't think much resources could be spent digging through stacked rough barrels. There may have been confidence in how a barrel would finish if it came out of a specified order, but, luck aside, truly mirrored matching and other intentional patterns probably required a price premium. In most cases, particularly in production, it seems like the barrel tubes were nothing more than a component.

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I seem to recall having read in the past, perhaps Greener, that the tubes were rough bored, but not to finish size. Would not have had any choke at that point. The breeches were threaded as I recall & a breech plug with touch hole screwed in. The large proof charge would have then been muzzle loaded. The barrels were then laid on a frame with a powder train connecting them. A large number of tubes could be proofed at once. When the train was touched off the tubes fired & recoiled into a sand pit behind them. They were then examined & stamped if passed. This proof was primarily for the gunmakers protection as it prevented a lot of work being done a faulty tube. More tubes failed proof I believe in this provisional proof than in the later Definitive proof.


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I have little to contribute, but will do so anyway wink a little at a time. It drives Bro. Steve nuts when I talk about "scrolls", but that's the only way I can get a handle on the patterns, and Dr. Gaddy did smile

1. The McKinley Tariff of 1890 set the average ad valorem tariff rate for imports into the United States at 48.4%. “Sporting, breech-loading double-barrel shotguns” had a 35% ad valorem PLUS an import duty of $1.50 if priced less than $6; $4 if $6-$12; and $6 if priced greater than $12. “Single-barrel breech-loading shot-guns” had the same 35% ad valorem PLUS an import duty of $1. “Forged rough shotgun barrels” i.e. non-joined tubes, however, were exempt from the tariff which allowed the US makers to continue to import Damascus tubes from (mostly) Belgium to fit and finish here.

Nov. 30, 1895 Sporting Life
"How Shot Guns Are Made and the Process Through Which They Pass Fully Explained"
The beginning of the manufacture of a gun is the barrels, and it is generally known that no barrels are made in this country except the rolled steel, which is used on the Winchester gun. All gun barrels are now imported, although an attempt was made a few years ago to produce them in this country, but with only partial success. England, Germany and Belgium supply most of the barrels, the latter country doubtless producing the larger quantity.
All gun barrels, whether imported direct from the makers in Belgium, or through an importer in this country to the gun manufacturer, are received in rough tubes, which very much resemble a couple of gas pipes, but being somewhat larger at one end than at the other. These barrels or “tubes” as they are called, are merely tied together in pairs, with small wire and 40 to 50 pairs are packed in a box.

2. The Banc D'Epreuves Des Armes a Feu De Liege (Proof House for Firearms of Liege) First Obligatory Proof Load for 12g breech plugged tubes intended for “Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns” was 21 grams = 324 grains = 11.8 Drams powder and 32 grams = 1.12 oz. shot

For comparison, British Provisional Proof (tube bored, ground, and with chamber cut and threaded for a plug) 1855-1925 for 2 1/2” and 2 5/8” 12 gauge shells for a service load of 3 1/4 Dram Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot was 9 3/4 dram “T.P.” (Tower Proof “R.F.G. 2”) No. 4 or No. 5 Black Powder with 1 1/4 oz. shot.

3. After Belgian First Obligatory Proof, the tubes were marked with the Banc D'Epreuves de Liege provisional proof mark



The mark so rarely remained after grinding and final finishing by U.S. makers that it is my opinion that it was purposefully struck lightly.

4. Bro. Ken linked the previous thread discussing the rolling mills. No doubt generic 2, 3 & 4 iron damas crolle' ("Oxford" & "Turkish") rods were prepared in mass, as likely were less complicated patterns; ?"American Flag" and Chain. Desire Mineur, of Prayon, Liege, claimed exclusive rights to "Chain-pattern" damascus in 1904, but I suspect most of the barrel makers were fabricating some variant thereof. The proprietary patterns probably were "stacked" into the "lopin" by the barrel maker, the sent to the rolling mill.

More on Ken's specific pattern later.

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Ken61 Offline OP
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OK, thanks.

Sooo, now we can refine somewhat the roll of the Rolling Mill. Am I correct to believe the Lopins were prepared by the Barrel Maker, then sent to the mill to be forged into an Iron. The irons then came back to the BM for twisting, and combining with others to create the Ribband. This would mean the RM provided strictly the service of forging the lopin into the iron, as opposed to the RM creating the lopin, forging the iron, and selling it to the BM. If the RM was forging BM lopins, the BM not only had control of the pattern, but how heavy (thick) the barrel would be, since different guns required different barrel types. Now, this would be the case for proprietory patterns, but would mean that for more standard ones, the BM would buy the pre made irons from the RM. Make sense?

Regards
Ken

Last edited by Ken61; 06/16/17 01:26 PM.

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Ken, I think a rolling mill is a machine, and maybe not so much step in the process. I believe it's purpose was labor/time savings for components that required significant reduction through the process of drawing. I'd suspect there was also the side benefit of more uniformity to what ever pattern was being created. But, I think it's less desirable to appear too perfect for something that's being admired for its handmade qualities.

There was a comment about twisting at high speed, I think probably a reference to a production forging operation and not likely something the hand hammerers could do. That was just a thought about what a mill may have been doing in addition to running stock through their rolling mills. Only thoughts is all.

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Ken: I agree with PeteM that the vast majority of lopins were "stacked" at the rolling mill:
"There is a general myth which goes something to the effect that each barrel maker made the pattern. That is simply not the case. The rolling mill would schedule runs of the patterns it had orders for. The barrel smith would pay the mill for the ribbons they needed. The barrel smith would then forge them into complete barrels..."

HOWEVER, per Monthly Consular and Trade Reports, “Report by Consul Robertson on the Manufacture of Fire-Arms in the District of Verviers and Liege”, 1885
https://books.google.com/books?id=7EhJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA136&lpg
The lopin was stacked by the barrel maker, then sent to the rolling mill.

It is my opinion that proprietary or complex (think words in the pattern) lopins likely originated with the barrel maker.
"Runs" of generic damas' crolle rods originated at the mill, and as the process became more refined and mechanized, so did the ribbands. The 1891 Birmingham Proof House Trial Report listed a bunch of "machine forged" pattern welded barrels. Someone's eyes and arms still had to helical weld the ribband into a barrel however.

The barrels “in order of merit of endurance” (strength) were judged by the Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House to be:
* Tied for first place in the second phase destructive testing
1. English machine-forged 3 rod Laminated steel
2. English fluid compressed steel, Whitworth process
3. English machine-forged 2 rod Best Damascus
4. English steel Siemens - Martin process *
5. English hand forged 4 rod Best Damascus
6. English machine-forged 2 rod variegated Damascus *
7. English machine-forged 3 rod Best Damascus
8. English carburised steel, Darby’s method (invented in 1890 to add carbon to steel)
9. English machine-forged 2 rod Laminated steel
10. English “Superior Barrel Steel” (process and source not documented) *
11. English machine-forged chequered 3 rod Damascus (no clue as to what pattern this might be - have never seen a British "Bernard" pattern) *
12. Foreign steel, Siemens - Martin process *


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I can not conceive how damascus barrels with predictable designs including names could be done. Yet it was and I see that as one of the peaks in human industrial artistry.

What I'd like to know is if modern methods could produce damascus barrels as safe as steel why doesn't someone do it???...Geo

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