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The twisting of red hot iron or steel is a commonly employed blacksmithing technique. This link I provided yesterday documented the fact that even that twisting process was mechanized when it came to twisting the rods that were incorporated into the ribbands.

https://www.theexplora.com/the-making-of-best-damascus-barrels/

I would tend to think that the localities where Damascus barrels were produced tended to be similar to the areas where steel mill sprung up most anywhere. Some of the larger mills would have specialized in rolling larger orders for larger customers, and smaller producers would have incorporated numerous smaller processes into their operations. And it has always been quite common in the iron and steel industry for smaller producers to buy and refurbish outdated equipment to run small scale operations.

One of those smaller operations could easily have been the production of billets or lopins, and rods and ribbands to the local barrel making trade. It would have been as natural and sensible for the Barrel Makers to outsource and make use of more mechanized methods to increase production while reducing costs as it is for companies to do the same today. If Damascus barrelmaking had not been rendered obsolete by much cheaper fluid steel and a shortage of skilled labor after WW I, it isn't a stretch to imagine a highly automated and CNC controlled method of producing Damascus components and tubes being developed over time. But the monotonous uniformity of a highly mechanized process would not be able to produce the unique works of art we admire today.


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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
What I'd like to know is if modern methods could produce damascus barrels as safe as steel why doesn't someone do it???...Geo


Because so few people would be willing and able to pay for it, that it would never be a profitable venture. Even the CNC produced Parkers and Ithaca fluid steel doubles couldn't survive for very long at today's labor costs and with consumer's wages that have generally lagged inflation. But you're IGNORING me, so you won't see this unless you peek again. whistle


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To the original question regarding the inconsistent coloring, I would agree with Steve (usually a good idea wink ) that the mill mixed steel of different origin, and not purposefully.

We've discussed pattern staining, and there are links here to threads
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EGInyr3CsRadXkmTYRak4TWK-pCB3cN5Wgg51u_SnEM/edit

Iron & steel sources
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V-qkkHrs7yJakMkakxkiMx8FzJjGXUg0EDm8-_AQPiA/edit

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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
I can not conceive how damascus barrels with predictable designs including names could be done. Yet it was and I see that as one of the peaks in human industrial artistry.

What I'd like to know is if modern methods could produce damascus barrels as safe as steel why doesn't someone do it???...Geo

I think Geo that intricate damascus designs are more common than you might suspect.

I was able to catch a video of a seminar sponsored by a large blacksmith organization where a knife maker now passed on, Bill Fiorini, explains how he was approached by Holland and Holland to do a match pair of damascus shotgun tubes with the H&H name woven in along the entire length.

Maybe just talk but he made a few damascus barrels for the Bowen revolver folks that could contain their higher power magnum chamberings. He explain the H&H commission never went through because they wanted to make him jump through too many hoops. Too bad, could've been a great legacy gun for both parties.

Damasteel comes to mind as a modern damascus barrel maker, but their stuff just doesn't look right. I believe they supplied the material for that horrendous Purdey over under one off.

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Craig, I know that Steve Culver who posts here, has made a 2 inch damascus barrel for a pistol he built. Damasteel doesn't look like damascus and I don't think it is made the same way damascus was.

I agree the Purdey looked awful. I had not heard of the Bill Fiorini you mentioned, but if he was considering making a pair of damascus barrels for H&H and they planned to make a gun of them, then it seems that it is at least possible for damascus barrels to be fabricated which would be safe for modern loads...Geo

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Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
To the original question regarding the inconsistent coloring, I would agree with Steve (usually a good idea wink ) that the mill mixed steel of different origin, and not purposefully.


Hmmm, I'm afraid I'm still in disagreement. My point all along has been that this coloring feature is anything but "inconsistent". In fact, that's been my major contention, that the coloring feature is consistent through all ribband sections. What is also not easily seen (due to lighting) is that the feature is present on the other tube as well. For me, it has never been an issue of intentionality. I was hoping someone would know the name used by the Barrel Makers for this feature.

Drew, I'll remind you of the 20ga Ithaca set I did, where the steel in one of the ribband sections colored clearly differently.
That was probably a manufacturing error, this feature, IMO, is not.

Regards
Ken

Last edited by Ken61; 06/17/17 12:27 AM.

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Ken61 Offline OP
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Here's how this type of feature develops during my coloring process. This is a freshly boiled, uncarded set. The band is visible, but once etched and finished it will look similar to the Parker pic.



Here's a shot of a set from a humble Batavia Leader, a gun not really known for elaborate tube patterns. You can see it's actually more complex, it's a matter of the process being able to bring out the features. It didn't surprise me, given Baker's relationship with Heuse Riga-Fils.




Regards
Ken

Last edited by Ken61; 06/17/17 10:14 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Ken61
....The band is visible, but once etched and finished it will look similar to the Parker pic....

....a humble Batavia Leader, a gun not really known for elaborate tube patterns. You can see it's actually more complex, it's a matter of the process being able to bring out the features....

To me at quick glance, I see differences. In the original Parker picture, the dark coloring is clumped towards the right hand side. That's what made me think composition, of a rod or three, and there are signs in the finished picture that different rods were used to make the ribbands.

In the first of the latest pictures, I'd try to look closer, but I think I would be seeing ribband weld connection areas. I think to arrive at the final barrel, those surfaces would have been exposed to the most heat cycles at forge welding temps in the open air before they were finally welded and were worked the most.

In the final Batavia barrel, I'd want to take a closer look, but it doesn't look more elaborate. I think the features appear larger because the construction was simpler, less layers. I'm probably wrong, but I don't see a ribband type construction, maybe just single rod wrap. I think this type of barrel is the opposite direction of 'fine' or 'extra fine', maybe cost saving but certainly bolder appearing on finishing.

Only opinion, thanks for the interesting topic, your thoughts and the pics.

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Ken61 Offline OP
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Craig,

Nah, the coloring and pattern on the Parker sets are consistent. It's the poor lighting quality that makes the coloring appear differently, due to glare. The Batavia Leader should end up with a darker periodic band like in the pic, but it's still going to be a type of Twist.

Regards
Ken


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I think this effect is called an "oopsie" wink but we no doubt have a lot more to learn about lopins, patterns, and staining methodology.

There IS a "Barber's Pole"; Two Iron Crolle Damascus Twist, Laminette Double, or Doppelter Laminett with two crolle rods with an "on edge" Twist rod on each side.
Obviously the "twisted around a pole" appearance is from the patterns, not the differential coloring



Bro. Steve figured out the "Damascus Twist" lopin of the Batavia barrel



The 'end on' of a ribband can be seen in the middle here



I suspect the pattern of the dark stained steel is just by chance



Unlikely anyone has done more restorations today than Paul Stevens. You might ask his opinion
barrelfinishers@gmail.com
https://m.facebook.com/StevensAndJohnson/

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