doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Pressure and Velocity

I think a better description of this comparison would be to consider just using the term rifle, instead of magnum rifle. The felt recoil difference of say a 30-06 compared to a 300 Win mag is very significant to most folks. The higher end of 12 ga slug, or magnum hunting load, muzzle energy is probably similar to the 30-06.

Even with full knowledge that the configuration of the firearms are different, now my subjective impression is that the slug gun is punishing and the 30-06 isn't too bad at all. I'd agree though that the shorter duration of the rifle bullet in the barrel feels like a sharper pop during recoil to me.

In response to the OP original Q

Don't worry about the condition of the cases as long as tape will cover the splits. You will never feel the difference. The gun will never know the difference. The target will never know the difference.
Some people take great pride in loading some particular case 20 times or more. Personally I could GAF. Reloadable 12ga cases are free for the picking up. When I was loading I used them once and tossed them with no regrets. No reason other than why bother. Now that reloading has become an economy of questionable worth I no longer bother at all and just blast away with the cheapest carts that come to hand - mostly Feds but some Wins as well. NBD in any event.

Seems like lotsa folks get twisted panties over inconsequential minutia. Worry about something important

It's a discussion forum, Wonk. We don't GAF that you don't GAF.

Your point that reloading is of 'questionable worth' is true to an extent. If standard promo target loads suit your shooting, there is little need to reload, at least for 12 gauge.

The extra performance of good high Sb shot in premium target loads comes at a price. I can load a premium target load for the cost of factory promo loads. Another apple/orange deal.

Anybody who shoots 410 more than a flat a year reloads or is wealthy. In spite of Armbrust, the STS 410 hulls are worthless. In 12 and 20, STS is king of the hill but in 28/410 AA is far superior. In spite of the recently observed 28 gauge AA brass splits It's still the best component hull.

It is worth noting that everyone uses 410 hulls until they will no longer hold the shot charge and it all ends up in their pocket, so maybe this crimp strength business is in fact a tad overblown.

Some might say they don't want to analyze this beyond a certain level. It's human nature to stop any analysis at the point you believe provides you with the information you are seeking.

The value of pursuing the analysis until the key variables are quantified is that you can then insert a new variable, such as gun weight, and calculate a quantifiable set of recoil attributes.

I like these kinds of discussions as long as we have folks who will join in peacefully. Just for the fun of it a I ran a few figures. Take 1 1/8os shot, 35 grains of wad & 20 grains of powder. Total weight o be ejected out the barrel is then 1� oz or .078 lb. Fire this load from a 28" barrel on a 6� lb gun. Now yes I know that the ejecta would not move quite the full 28" but I used that figure anyway. While this load traveled that 28" the gun would have traveled in the opposite direction 5/16" & attained a recoil velocity of 14.4 FPS giving it a recoil energy of 20.93 ft/lbs.
Over the years I have formed the Firm conclusion that Recoil Velocity is of far greater importance than Recoil Energy. This is why the old British formula of a 96:1 ratio of gun to shot weight works. 1 oz of shot from a 6 lb gun & 2 oz of shot from a 12 lb gun if given the same muzzle velocity will recoil at essentially the same recoil velocity, though the heavier gun would have twice the recoil energy.
I have in the past shot both. The big Ten while obviously heavier in recoil was not at all uncomfortable. "IF" on the other hand one were to raise the velocity of that 1 oz in the 6 lb gun to double the energy or equal that of the big Ten, it would be Absolutely, Tetotally, Unbearable.

The 'Old Cowboy' rather told me off when I opined that without the muzzle brake my 300 WBY was unshootable.

Tolerance varies.

Or at least people claim so.

Looking back at the original recoil scenario. All three examples of recoil were created by the exact same 'total energy', yet they are perceived differently.

I'm not sure what 'peak force' is. Is it expressed as peak chamber PSI, or is it the mass of the payload x acceleration?

If all the variables have been equalized, including the total energy of the payload leaving the gun, it seems that recoil perception, is purely time related. Is it, the longer time it takes for the payload to separate from a gun with equal opposing force, the less recoil that's perceived? Then a question might be, if all else is equal, what amount of change in time can be perceived as different.

Craig;
The total recoil energy is determined solely by weight & velocity.
Where the "Felt Recoil" comes into play is based on rate of acceleration, The quicker the acceleration, thus shorter barrel time to achieve that velocity the "Sharper" the recoil. While I in no way question this concept I do have some reservations concerning all the "Hype" sometimes published on Felt Recoil.
The big deal here is as you mentioned "What amount of change in time can be perceived as different".
While I do not have any concise answers on this I do have grave doubts that within the parameters of a powder of suitable burn rate for a given shotgun load that there truly is a "Feelable" difference in actual acceleration rates.
For instance to load a 1 oz shot charge to 1200 FPS powders in the range of Red Dot to Green dot are going to be suitable, regardless of brand name on the can. Start going to much slower powders then you are courting squibs & failures.This is particularly applicable if you are going to use the loads when temperatures may fall down in the below freezing range as in hunting loads. For strictly Hot weather use one does have a bit more lee-way but I still do not like these Extremely "Low Pressure" loads. I realize many here will disagree with this but this is using those powders in a way for which they were not designed nor intended.

Not sure if this is relevant to the actual topic discussed but I purchased several cases of B & P shotshells. There is a noticeable difference in felt recoil reduction using these shells. Prior to this I thought the "Gordon System" they advertise was just hype. Wrong. I would guess this is a "crush system".

Many here are aware of Neil Winston's work, which includes the only to my knowledge single blind sorta controlled study regarding the ability to perceive fast vs. slow powder recoil curve www.claytargettesting.com



As a victim of a State of Missouri public education, here's the non-deep thinking version.

1.Recoil is easily calculated: http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

as is Recoil Velocity http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/August01.htm

2. Perceived or 'felt' recoil is almost impossible to define. Good science is reproducible and measurable and there is no 'pain-o-meter' because pain is entirely subjective. One can measure the difference in perceived pain OF an individual but not BETWEEN individuals. One person may rate the recoil of the same shell and gun as a 7 and the next a 4.
And perceived pain is highly variable and dependent on multiple external and internal physiologic factors ie. pain seems worse at night when there are fewer external stimuli. One's assessment of recoil when shooting a record Kudu vs.sighting in the .375 is entirely different. 'Felt' recoil may differ based on too much coffee that morning or too much alcohol the night before, fatigue, sleep deprivation, stress, or anxiety. And stock design/gun fit/muzzle jump contribute significantly.

But a smart guy is working on understanding, or at least quantifying, 'felt recoil'.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223811001_Measuring_felt_recoil_of_sporting_arms

And breaking news from 1897

Sporting Guns and Gunpowders: Comprising a Selection from Reports of Experiments, and Other Articles Published in the �Field� Newspaper, Relative to Firearms and Explosives, Volumes 1-2, 1897
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA197
�Some Notes on Recoil�

https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA254
It is a fundamental principle that action and re-action are equal and opposite; therefore, at the moment when the shot leaves the muzzle of the gun, the momentum (or weight x velocity) of the shot will be equal to the momentum of the gun. This is strictly true from the tune the shot first commences to move until it finally leaves the muzzle, but only up to that instant.
On no subject in connection with gunnery are there more erroneous ideas�superstitions one might almost call them�than on recoil. Many men will tell you that certain guns, with precisely the same ammunition, will give much more recoil than other guns of exactly the same weight. It will generally be found that these men are either novices in the art of shooting, or else they do not hold their guns properly up to the shoulder. Once and for all, it may be laid down that the recoil of guns, rifles, and arms of every description, from the smallest pistol to the heaviest piece of ordnance, proceeds from the same causes and depends upon the same elements.

https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA266
�judging of the weight and nature of recoil by the feeling alone one is apt to be misled; for according to the state of bodily health at the time, so will be the sensation produced by a normal recoil��