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Argo44 Offline OP
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Ted in a separate line asked how I could date a Saint-Etienne 16 gauge accurately. I've chosen to start a new line to keep from "jumping the shark" on that one.

I’ve been looking for a early 20th century Saint-Etienne fusil de chasse for some time. French guns are very difficult to date we all agree. Using the usual markers (prizes won, models, catalogs, patents, etc) might get us into the ball park. But there are two items that will definitely narrow down an earl 20th century period piece:
...1) use of cm to denote chambering would mean it was pre-1912? (it would be interesting to find out the exact date this changed from cm to mm): and
...2) Didier-Drevet barrels are dated and have a serial number.

I wonder if there are more examples of dated Stephanois guns? For background (and it's been discussed before ) here are a few dated Didier-Drevet barrels from the internet (reorganized chronologically): -- (images back thanks to jpgbox)

1). 1878 Didier-Drevet fusil (damascus) date on the gun (not the barrel). 65m Chambers.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

http://www.tircollection.com/t18880-un-beau-fusil-de-chasse-sobre-et-elegant

2). 1900 12 gauge:
Didier-Drevet Acier Mandrine (Mandrel Steel) (Mandrine means "turned on a mandrel or lathe"; un Mandrin is a Mandrel; Mandrine is an adjective modifying the feminine noun Acier) Canon Plume barrels; 18.4; 6.5; 1900 - 8971

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=396092&page=all

3) 1904 from a Russian site:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels; 18.4; 6.5; 1904 - 11046
http://img.allzip.org/g/1/orig/15625032.jpg

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

4) 1905 Cyrillic site:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume: 1905 - 11604 (unclear)
http://arc.violity.com/ruzhe-didier-drevet-1900-g-12132152

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

5) 1906 16 gauge with 7cm chambers: The is Ed Good’s gun previously posted. I discussed this with Ed and he assured me a chamber gauge showed them to be 2 3/4”. I told him it had to have been rechambered. Then noticed this little “7” on the barrel flats (7cm). It does indeed seem to be a 1906 with 2 3/4” chambers.
Photo deleted: Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels Stamped 17.0; 7; 1906 - 11985

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


6) 1906 Didier-Drevet 12 bore from 1906 with 7cm chambers:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels; 18.4; 7; 1906 - 12076

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

7). 1908 Per able2zero, Shotgunworld:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels: 17.0; 6.5; 1908 - 12740
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=223806

8). 1910 12 gauge with chambers labeled 6.5. The seller advertised the gun as having 2 3/4” chambers. I asked him about this - he claimed “6.5” had nothing to with 65mm and the chambers were as advertised. If so, it’s been relieved:
(photo deleted - Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels labeled 18.4; 6.5; 1910 - 13185

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

9). 1918 Didier-Drevet - Skeetz's gun:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels; 18.4; 65; 1918 - 14204

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]



There must be some additional info someplace: The French magazine “Armes de Chasse” issue nr 42, Juillet - aot - septembre 2011 had an article under Collection titled Le trio Didier-Drevet.


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Argo,
To begin with, it is Ted, not Tim.

While it is easy to say a Didier barreled gun has a date stamp, it is a much different thing to document that. Further, even if it is a date stamp, what would it represent? It could be the date the barrels were provisionally proofed, the date the barrels were assembled, or the date the gun was final proofed. We really have no way of knowing for sure. There could be YEARS between any of those events, and when the gun reached inventory, and years between when that happened, and when it was sold.

Picture number 6 is a gun I am very familiar with, as it lives in my neighborhood, and I posted a bit about this gun here on the board. It is the wreakage of a high grade Darne that doesn't fit the description of R, V, or P model. The picture you posted is missing the proof stamp, which, was for powder J. 1900 was the year powder T was introduced, but, for at least a few years after that, one could specify powder M, J, S, or T. Hence, we can't even state with authority when a gun was built based on the powder it was proofed with, save the fact that anything proofed with powder T would be post 1900. Further confusing what and when with this gun, is the fact that Regis Darne's offerings were pretty well sorted by 1900, and this gun doesn't appear to be a cataloged model, or, marked with a stamp in reference to grade.

Documenting an exact time of change for the markings 6.5 and 65 could be problematic as well. The proof house in St. Etienne is a literal hive of activity, and the day I was there, there were rack upon rack of modern pump and autoloading barrels being proofed for Verney Carron, among all the other barrels. It would seem to me that the 6.5 mark could have very well been used alongside the 65 mark until it simply wore out and was discarded.They mean the exact same thing. Again, documentation would be wonderful, but, we simply don't have that, yet, and anything else is speculation until we do.
I was very lucky on the day that I visited, as if there had been military contract barrels of any sort in the building, access would not have been granted to me. I would be willing to bet few Americans have toured the facility.

Best,
Ted

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Argo44 Offline OP
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Ted, we ran across the possibility of stockpiled barrels with the EM Reilly's. Some barrels were proofed before 1896 but not mated with a gun until 1901-2. So what you say may be right. In which case logically it would have been the barrel maker Didier-Drevet (DD) doing the stockpiling not the gun maker. ("ring ring - DiD mon cher...do you have a 17.0, 70cm barrel on hand? Great..send it over).

However, having a date on a barrel (and a Serial Number) is better than nothing, especially with the chamber stamps. I suspect knowing the French, that the change from cm to mm was a directive or law and that as such there would have been little slippage. This is Napoleonic bureaucracy at its best. It’s worth looking into.

As for (for example) the Gerest-Berthon for sure it was made 1906 or later. And it was made before the change in the chamber stamp from cm to mm. So to date it it would be fair to say something like this - the barrel was made in 1906 and mated to the gun sometime between 1906 and WWI"? If I could find a Berthon SN later than this gun...it would cut the date down to a couple of years.

And you could add, that at that time at least some French guns were being chambered for 7cm i.e. 2 3/4. (There are two guns on the list with 1906 barrels, Didier-Drivet SN 11985 and SN 12025, one 16ga one 12ga, and one 1907? SN 12537, 12 ga and all have 7cm chambers). At least that”s a start.

And, If more could be found, more markers might come into play. For instance, Berthon Freres registered two patents; for later guns it’d be interesting to see if those were applied to those guns which could date them. I believe that with some detective work (especially with the dates on the DD barrels and their SN's which may or may not have been consecutive), and exploring when the French began to chamber guns for 7cm - 2 3/4 could indeed help narrow down the date of the manufacture of a gun.

This may also apply to other Saint-Etienne gun manufactures...especially if you can sync up the gun serial numbers with the dated barrel SN’s and get a pattern.
For instance, if you can find 10 Darnes with DD barrels - and you have a SN on each Darne, and a dated SN on the barrels...you probably could construct a matrix to hang dates on all of the rest....might not be 100% but it would be better than what we've got. That's pretty much what I did with the Reilly's and it was a real historical trip to do the research.

Gene Williams


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12 gauge both with 65mm chambers

2292 number but no date


19468 number but no date


Mike

Last edited by skeettx; 06/29/17 09:59 PM.

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Both look to be in mm, right? Kind of interesting to look at the SN progression and dates of the DD barrels above - might not mean squat or then it might:
1853? - DD begins to serial number and date his barrels
1878 - ...????; 65 chambered in mm; 18.6; Gun Maker: Didier Fusil; Sn: ?? (damas underlever hammergun)
1885 - ..4922; ??? chambered in mm; 17.0. Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ?? (from page 3)
1900 - ..8975; 6.5 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: Darne; gun sn??
1904 - 11046; 6.5 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ?? gun sn:
1905 - 11604; ??? chambered in ??; 18.4; (unclear); Gun maker: ?? gun sn: ??
1906 - 11985; 7 chambered in cm; 17.0; Gun maker: Gerest Berthon; gun sn
1906 - 12075; 7 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1907?- 12537: 7 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ?? (from next page)
1907 - 12613?; 7 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun Maker: Geneaux; gun sn: ; (from 4th page)
1908 - 12740; 6.5 chambered in cm; 17.0; Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1910 - 13184; 6.5 chambered in cm; 18.4: Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1912 - 13689? 65 chambered in mm; 18.4: Note the 1912 shift to mm. (page 4)
1918 - 14204; 65 chambered in mm; 18.4: Gun maker: ?? gun sn: 19488; (Skeetz's gun)(doubt many shotgun barrels were made August 1914-November 1918; in fact yours might have been the first made after Nov 11, 1918? who knows...but just go ahead and claim it's true - the story makes a gun)
no date - 15035; 65? chambered i mm; 18.4: note the lack of a date; (page 4)

DD looks to have been making about 300 barrels a year from 1885 - 1910? With production/sales declining towards WWI - and probably zero 14 Aug 1014- 11 Nov 1918 for obvious reasons.

And on some of those barrels, other SN's are overlaid, possibly from the gun manufacture itself. Match up the DD barrel dates with those SN's or with the guns those barrels were mated with and voila, you have at least an early mark on their entire production.

Anyone want to construct a graph?

Last edited by Argo44; 12/23/20 06:35 PM.

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I've been playing a similar version of this game for thirty years. You can come close, but, I question ever being able to nail a precise date down.

This would appear to be the oldest gun I've got, at the moment:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Note that the gun has the 6.5 chamber stamps. Proofed with powder T, for sure later than 1900. I once owned a Darne V20 that was identified as 1910 by the maker. It had 65mm stamps. It was also serial numbered in the 52,000 range, illustrative of a few things. Production was roaring on Darne guns in that era. I've seen few Darne guns of that age with Didier barrels, and I suspect the Darne factory simply out grew their suppliers fairly early on. You will see many old Darne guns with the stamp "Canons Darne" telling you that Darne produced their own tubes. At what point they made that leap I am not positive, but, I suspect prior to 1910. The V20 was clearly marked that way.
Herv Bruchet dated the V20 by comparing the work of the engraver who signed the gun, "Bernaud", with earlier, known examples of his work and a bit of history. Bernaud had to work into his mid 90s, and the later his work was, the worse it got. This was evident on my example.
But, it is the exception in my experience, rather than the rule, that one can nail down a date. No, we can't be sure who stockpiled barrels for French shotguns at the turn of the previous century, producer or manufacturer or, for how long.
The Halifax barrel flats, shown above, are from a pretty old gun. A friend has a Halifax 4, this being a Halifax 3, and the engraving is identicle, which points to his being a later gun, as does his five digit serial number, as opposed to the four digit number on this gun. A call to the factory got him a date of early 1930s, which, seems about right when considering the catalog evidence.
I suppose I'd guess the example Halifax in the photo as between 1905 and 1915. It is an educated guess, but, no more than a guess.
I can't clearly see a way to narrow it down beyond that.


Best,
Ted

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Probably best to remember that with those French ladies, don't think only about dating them. Think about taking them home for a longer term relationship. smile

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Probably best to remember that with those French ladies, don't think only about dating them. Think about taking them home for a longer term relationship. smile



At least when we are speaking of Darne products, you aren't holding up your end of the bargain, Mr. Brown...


Best,
Ted

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Argo44 Offline OP
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I have two French doubles and one French spouse. None are going anywhere (that I know of...at least the first two).

Last edited by Argo44; 07/01/17 01:01 AM.

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Great informative discussion.

But I guess Photobucket has struck again.

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I am convinced that the change from cm to mm dates from 1906-1914, but don't know exactly when. I most doubt that a call to the St-Etienne office would resolve that.


It would be very nice to know when and accessorily why.
The change between CGS system (centimeter, gram, second) to MKS system (meter, kilogram, second) is much later, so I don't think that it plays a role here.
One of the reason would be that a lone "7" looks funny.

I did not know that DD put a date on his barrels.
The first one I know who did this was Bernard, and that is documented in a different thread.
It is important to understand that in the French trade, barrel makers would make barrel sets (with lumps, ribs, etc.) and not individual barrels.
With LB I have documented many cases where there was a significant (years) lapse of time between barrel making and gun finishing.

Final proofing is always the job of the gun maker. But provisional proof is the job of the barrel maker.

So there could be a lapse between barrel dates and final proof dates.

The use of T powder is also questionable. MF used S powder proofing much after 1900. Sometimes multiple proofs were done at the same time. I have a Pirlet gun with PJ, PS and PM marks.

All the best...
WC-

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Actually, digging further, MKS was introduced in 1889 so that change could have been the reason.
Best regards,
WC-

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Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Probably best to remember that with those French ladies, don't think only about dating them. Think about taking them home for a longer term relationship. smile



At least when we are speaking of Darne products, you aren't holding up your end of the bargain, Mr. Brown...


Best,
Ted


That's true, Ted. I've determined that those French sliding breech blondes aren't for me. Doesn't mean I wouldn't take home a sweet break action brunette.

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WC, I'm not quite understanding a couple of points in the post (And I'm pretty much a novice so pls have patience).

-- Saint-Etienne barrel makers made and assembled both barrels with lumps and ribs then sold them to the gun makers. So all the lumps were the same for all the manufactures? Darne, VC, ZF...all what..95 of them?

-- And there are two 7cm chambered DD barrels dated 1906 above. We've documented in another line how many different shells were being marketed in America by 1900. This line can only document two different French chambers for shells at the time - 6.5 and 7.0. Is there anyway to find out what shells were being made and sold in France at the time and what guns were chambered for them? It looks like universally 6.5 with the occasional 7. and that's it. Yet British gunmakers like Americans were ramping up the length and power of their double riflesand shotgun cartridges/shells at the time.

Finally, Passionlachasse.com and other sites have questioned the date of the change over from cm to mm in Saint-Etienne guns. 1912 seems to be the most accepted possible date. All agree that if this can be nailed down, it will be an important marker for French guns. There has to be some directive/documentation on this. It's worth the effort historically to track it down. But no one seems to want to take the bull by the horns and actually write to the proof house or do the research. There just has to have been a directive.

Last edited by Argo44; 07/02/17 12:34 AM.

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- re: barrel making.
I am sure the barrel maker would do anything as asked: barrel length, width at the breech, weight, rib extension, type, length and width of lumps etc. However, it was his responsibility to have the barrels assembled and provisionally proved.
This was done for sure by the best vendors such as LB or DD or Jean Breuil or Heurtier (who did braze their ribs..).
Some vendors might have provided individual barrels upon request.
And of course Granger did everything himself AFAIK.
- 65mm was the mainstay at least until WWII. Pigeon guns were different of course. I would say that 70mm took off well after WWII for general usage. 67mm was and still is also an option at least for the ammo. Again I'll look in the MF catalog to study the trend.
- it would be fun to call the "banc dpreuve" and ask! That would be amusing for sure. There most likely was some paperwork associated with that, but I doubt it showed up on the "journal Officiel". And if the paperwork still exists in St-Etienne , it is buried way deep in there...
Best regards,
WC-

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7 cm chamber: Another Didier-Drevet barrel - previously posted by Raimey; Can't see the date but it's an "Acier Mandrine" (I think Mandrine means "machined" or "rolled" on a mandrel - a central chuck; see the 1900 barrel with the same "Acier Mandrine") SN looks like 12537?? (1908 per SN progression). 18.4 and it's chambered for 7 cm. (Made for a Darne??). If you can match up the gun SN with the barrel date, you might have a ball park idea of when that particular gun were made.



7.5 cm chamber: And this is interesting: An 1890-1912(?) 18.2 guage G.Peyron hammer gun chambered for 7.5 cm. Barrels by Marsot. "Double verrou,levier volute" platines "en avant" dont on trouve dj des modles dans des catalogues de 1884,mais il doit en exister de plus anciens car le "Levier volute" existait dja sur des Lefaucheux broche.



Le Levier volute ne doit pas tre confondu avec un systme voisin la "Cl Beringer" ou "Pontet-Serpent" .
Les premiers commandent une fermeture dite "en "T"" ou "T anglais" ("Tea time's" ?) Very Happy ;mais par la suite ils seront comme le tien adapt un double verrou classique.
Pour donner un point de comparaison permettant de le dater; la "ManuF" propos des modles strictement identiques au tien de 1890 1900 avec des canons Damas
Je n'ai pas russi trouver s'il y avait eu aprs 1900 des modles canons acier comme ce fut le cas pour les modles platines "en arrire" jusqu'en 1912 .
Il faut toutefois noter que les modles "en avant" comme le tien valaient en 1893 20% de plus que les modles "en arrire" canonerie gale.
Mais le "Levier volute" pu aussi bien tre abandonn pour les modles les plus chers, et rserv aux modles "conomiques" vu la diffusion aprs 1900 de la cl "Top Lever" que nous utilisons encore.

http://www.tircollection.com/t22742-fusil-de-chasse-g-peyron

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Argo, I'm a little suspicious about those 7.5's. Virtually nothing else nearly as clearly legible. Makes me wonder whether they might have been lengthened later on--perhaps by someone clever enough to know that on a gun of that vintage, they needed to use 7.5 rather than 75.

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I don't know Larry; it's a fascinating looking under-lever with apparently Damascus barrels though they look steel in the photo. Here is the comment about the chambering:

Concernant le chambrage il est vrai que les fusils de cette poque taient chambrs 65 mm toutefois certains modles dit " chambre longue" existaient, et si je te parle de c'est que le double marquages "7.5" m'interpelle car je me demande s'il ne s'agit pas de la longueur de chambre en cm.
As for the chambering, it's true that long arms from this era were chambered for 65mm although certain models called "long chamber" existed. If I speak of this, it's because of the double mark "7.5" especially since I'm wondering whether this might not refer to the length of the chamber in cm.

And by the way, the poster uses three words for types of underlevers:
-- levier volute
-- Lefaucheux cl
-- Cl Beringer" or "Pontet-Serpent


Last edited by Argo44; 07/03/17 03:28 PM.

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Mike, I just realized your "19468" is not the SN for the DD barrels. The DD barrel SN is 1918 - 14204 per comment above. That 19468 must refer to something else; perhaps the SN of the gun itself?

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YES, and I just looked again and there is that second set of numbers smile

1918 . 14202

Mike


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As I mentioned above. I wonder if this was one of the first shotguns made after Nov 11, 1918. I think the whole Saint-Etienne industry concentrated on the war effort and not on making sporting guns. This is mentioned in an article about the Berthon Bros patents. Is that other number the serial number of your gun? Is there a name on your gun? If so, you've come pretty close to dating it.


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This 1902 book is interesting. It uses mm to delineate chambers - 65mm is the norm (all while Saint-Etienne was using cm) - but then goes on to say that some shotguns were being chambered in 70mm up to 90mm!!





New word:
tui - shell, cartridge

Last edited by Argo44; 07/04/17 11:47 AM.

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For history here is a letter written by Didier Drevet to the local Saint-Etienne Newspaper on Nov 28, 1878 apparently on the regulation and excellence of Stephanois barrel makers and apparently advocating tariff protection. I cannot get access to page 2 to read the whole letter...this is page 3...but it's evident he was a prominent artisan at the time..and a member of the board of the proof house. The response by the editor was solicitous.

http://www.memoireetactualite.org/presse/42LEREPUBLIC/PDF/1878/42LEREPUBLIC-18781128-P-0003.pdf



Here is a rough translation...very rough...don't feel like making it a finished product, you'll get the idea:

.....Government so that the law will apply everywhere. And in closing I recall, in conclusion, that the Americans and the English do not have special expositions for barrel makers, that the Belgians dont produce anything but mediocre products and that Paris and Saint-Etienne alone are left standing
.....Our production of die cast tooling involves every facet of barrel production and in the near future, will surely be top ranked.
.....I have the honor, sir editor, to be your devoted constituent.

Didier Drevet
Master barrel maker, member of the com-
mission for oversight of the proof-
house of Saint-Etienne.

.....We roundly congratulate M. Didier-Drevet for the report so complete and instructive that weve just read.
....The gun making community Stephanoise will not fail to profit from the opinions which he has given to reform our toolmaking/diecasting such that his advice regarding the law on barrel making and the methods are applied in Paris. We also are happy to congratulate M. Diider-Drevet on being chosen as delegate in the workers meetings and that a better choice could not be found.
.....He is in effect, one of the master barrel makers the most honored of our city. He is credited with a number of inventions and of reforms in the craft of barrel making such as the substitution of barrel lump "souped" for barrel lump "vise" and the creation of several types of damascus steel, such as those that were designed per a preceding report under the name damas mirlitou and which were noted in the written report of M. Jussie.
.....One can see that there is nothing to lose in letting the interested parties take care of their affairs. They will reap the benefits of the success that will come from protection, such as the ones they had from preceding governments.

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Lovely find & contribution. He was one of a very small pool of master mechanics who could roll a proper tube.

Cheers,

Raimey
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Bernard, Fanget, Breuil . . . the French had some pretty darned good canoniers.

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Yeah, I guess Lopold Bernard of Paris was the best of the best & set the tone to be emulated by the rest.


Cheers,

Raimey
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Book on the 1900 Universal Exposition in Parts....display of Saint-Etienne arms makers for hunting: Didier-Drevet won a gold medal. You'll see familiar names. Manufrance, Verney Caron, Rivolier, Gerest (not yet Berthon), Brun-Latridge, Darne, Peyron, Meatt Czeron.etc. What is interesting in this book are pictures of large artillery pieces. One is measure in mm. Yet one of the largest shown is "21 cm" (210mm - 8")..i.e French military seemed to be using cm some of the time...or at least Saint-Etienne was.

http://www.forez-info.com/encyclopedie/l...le-de-1900.html




14 grands prix furent dcerns, toutes nations confondues. Trois d'entre eux ont distingu l'industrie stphanoise:

- La socit Didier Drevet et Fils (canonniers): " Leurs divers types de canons en damas et en acier avec les diffrents genres de bandes et d'assemblage ralisaient une irrprochable perfection", relve le Jury.

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One of the nicest French guns I've owned was a 16ga boxlock with sideplates by Drevet.

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I have found the other page of the 1878 article written by Didier-Drevet on the state of Saint-Etienne barrel making posted below. It's fascinating. I'll translate it but it may take a day or two - there's a lot of metallurgical terms - great for learning and there's an explanation about "Acier Mandrine" too. - snarky comments about Paris gun makers and he takes a careful swipe at Leopold Bernard.

http://www.memoireetactualite.org/presse/42LEREPUBLIC/PDF/1878/42LEREPUBLIC-18781128-P-0002.pdf

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Here is a rough translation of this article. - M. DD essentially advocates upgrading the tool and dies of Saint-Etienne and complain rightly about the Paris gun makers who are not abiding by the proof-laws while be favored by the Exposition:

Here is the report of M. Didier-Drevet, master barrel maker, sent by his colleagues to the universal Exposition:

Monsieur the Editor: As barrel-maker I was a part of the delegation of gun-maker workers who were sent to Paris last October.

That delegation, you will recall, was designated by the gun makers following a meeting organized by the workers themselves at the invitation of the representative for the Loire.

It is under these circumstances that I went to the 1978 Exposition and I consider that it is my obligation to communicate to my constituents some observations that I can recall about the part of arms making with which I�m most familiar, the barrels.

I regret that the passage of time and the difficulty of visiting all the displays does not allow me to analyze in detail all the products of each exposition, but I have seen enough for me to form an informed opinion of the current state of the fabrication of barrels in each country represented at the exposition.

I cannot speak for all the barrel makers of St-Etienne to the Stephanois, each of whom whom knows what it takes to make something work.

It is sufficient for me to state that we were represented by three companies who have an old and excellent reputation and which this exposition was one of the most important and one which is a judgment of the value of their arms from the the point of view of the barrel. However, if they are behind in hunting products, they seem in contrast to be very advanced in combat barrel making.

Their displays confirm that their carbine barrels are made in an irreproachable manner.

Besides the specimens which accompanied the barrels for showing the diverse phases of barrel making, the American barrel makers did not show a method of drilling useful for our manufacturers. It would be too long and too arduous.

The barrel is made in the middle of a steel sleeve 25-30 centimeters long. This sleeve is founded in a hollow manner to avoid losing material, it is then forged on a single spindle chuck machine in order to rationalize and equalize the surfaces and then stretched on the interior and exterior on a rolling machine in different passes in a way to obtain the desired length and at the same time in a conical form which is right for forming a barrel.

This has shown to have, according to me, two marked advantages: it involves a great economy of material and of machining; and stamping metal by the double action of the rolling machine and of the single spindle chuck mandrel machine gives it a toughness and a resistance to all tests.

It is possible that the mandrel rolling presents some practical difficulties, but it doesn�t seem to me probable that these difficulties could outweigh the advantages that one finds by the process, such as the economy of material used, of hand work and of tooling, and of the quality of the metal.

It would be desirable if our large factories in the basin of the Loire, which have such powerful means, might try this process of fabrication; They are able certainly with little study and of perseverance to produce at a very good price barrels for war and barrels for hunting. They are enriching therefore the local industry by a new branch of production and they give to the Stephanoise gun-making industry the means to reconquer the export market which they lost because of not being able to produce marketable barrels.

English exports: I have noted with surprise that the English barrel makers do not have special expositions such as other factories of Europe. I cannot explain their abstention; in any case I can judge their knowledge and inspect the barrels exhibited in the display windows of the manufacturers.

Their barrels are not distinguished by a variety of types. Their barrels are in general of damascus of a large design of which the appearance is not at all seductive. They are besides strong and well made, well turned and certainly well polished; but there are some qualities of care owing to which one obtains them everywhere and puts up the price.

One sees in their display cases some rifles costing 770 Fr of which the barrels are ordinary damascus and seem according to all reports to resemble those being used on St-Etienne rifles costing 300 fr.

Whatever the demand that one professes in certain circles for English long-guns. I do not see that that preference is justified by the value of the barrels and I maintain that our stephanois barrel makers are capable of producing a better set of barrels as perfect in the execution and more appealing.

Those who have a predilection for English manufacture do not realize the weight of the gun, and, how that question of weight has great importance for the barrel maker. A variance of several fractions of grammes changes all the conditions for execution. In order to make a barrel at the same time light, solid and well, one must use a fine art, taking care and precautions which repeat themselves on each operation, and, more, running the risk of the tasks which are larger the lighter the piece.

Currently all the barrels that are being ordered from Saint Etienne in caliber 12 are measured in a weight of 15 or 16 grams while in England they tolerate up to two kilos.

It is the style in France in certain circles to see with rose colors glasses everything which comes from England. It is a very bad habit which will pass like many others.

Exposition Belgian: I have not analyzed the exposition of M. Leopold Bernard. This house is known throughout the world and It�s necessary to agree that it is successfully supporting its old reputation. However, when one compares this work with that of St-Etienne, one quickly recognizes that the gap is of little importance; that in reality the contrast which exists between the two expositions is more about the abundance of products and the richness of the display than in the superiority of execution. The only thing missing from our body of barrel work, which would equal that of Paris, is some additional installations; of better rolling mills, better made and more appropriate to the work of the barrel making, ovens to braze and polishers. Our methods of production are far too primative and our products suffer from the lack of means; but it is not a question of organization which might be solve this, and allow us to be able to deliver our production across the board.

For everything which touches the area of the barrel making, our infrastructure possesses all the elements; our forges, our dressers without boasting one can say have little comparison in the whole world.

Without wanting to diminish the merits of the house of Leopold Bernard, one must recognize that he is operating at an advantage because of his location.

For a long time his manufactures were encourgesd and supported by the Parisian gunmakers, who needed to have a prestigious barrel from Paris in order to have the rest of the gun which was made abroad accepted.

It�s true that the beautiful movement of egos was close to being extinguished because most of the long guns which I was given to look at in the display cases of the Parisian exposition were mounted with Belgian barrels and even barrels that were decidedly mediocre.

I visited in detail two of the display cases. I will abstain from citing the name of the two exhibiters, but I picked up ours and the brand names of the barrels and I could, if necessary, justify what i�m going to say in advance.

In spite of the long guns which were in the two display cases, I only found one barrel legally proof-marked and it was from Liege.

All the others were without a brand name, and of such of those I figure that six of the barrels were Belgian made.

It�s true to say that there is not a proof house in Paris. The government has not judged it necessary to establish one because there is not a single maker of barrels in Paris. It is this state of affairs which facilitates fraud and which I brought to the attention of the Paris Exposition. One can bring in barrels from Liege which have not been proofed; One can decorate them with a proper mark/name and one can then babtise them as Paris barrels. I know very well that M. Leopold Bernard, who is careful about his reputation and who, decidedly sells very expensive products, but without submitting his barrels to a serious proof test.

But as for the gun makers who buy these barrels without a proof mark abroad why would they do it differently?

In any case it�s not legal neither for one method or another. There cannot be two laws in France, one for Paris, the other for St-Etienne.

Here is the decree of 22 April 1868 applied to us.

The decree says:

�The barrel makers, merchants and workers cannot sell any barrel without it having been proofed and stamped by the accepted proof mark, a fine of 330 fr for the first time and a penalty of double that for each case after and the confiscation of the barrels which are put on sale."

The terms of the law are clear. How then can one allow to be spread out in the middle of the Exposition products which would be seized if they were in our city, at the frontier as always, by agents richly rewarded to make the law respected?

The jury of the Exposition could recompense, with their eyes closed, the gun-makers of Paris and shower gold medals on these barrels breaking the proof house decree. But the government cannot have two weights and two measures.

It is not admissible that the Stephanoise barrel makers are stringent in their proofing when their competition can spare the allowance and the risks that they bring.

It is sufficient to signal this state of affairs to the Government so that the law will apply everywhere. And in closing I recall, in conclusion, that the Americans and the English do not have special expositions for barrel makers, that the Belgians don�t produce anything but mediocre products and that Paris and Saint-Etienne alone are left standing

.....Our production of die cast tooling involves every facet of barrel production and in the near future, will surely be top ranked.

.....I have the honor, sir editor, to be your devoted constituent.

Didier Drevet
Master barrel maker, member of the com-
mission for oversight of the proof-
house of Saint-Etienne.

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And this I've added to the Didier-Drevet date database and the serial number dating matrix:

1885: 17.0; 1885 - 4911 - hammer gun, underlever Damascus barrels on a PONDEVAUX ET JUSSY gun (photos kaput thanks to greedy photo bucket) -raimey and WC - if you have photos of the barrel flats saved someplace, it would be an education to see them again.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=406682&page=4



With the 10 examples above, we can now pretty well date every serial number barrel made by DD! 10 points on a graph over 33 years is pretty darned definitive (even if we don't know the exact start date of his manufacture - it must be before 1855 because he won a prize) - and by dating the barrels and matching them to the guns they're mated with...we'll have a firm marker on the dates the guns themselves were made? And since we have that marker on a date that brand of gun were made - it could be carried over to a whole series for the brand. Not bad - not definitive but better than nothing. I need to make a graph.

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Argo, re your reference above to General Journee's book: He's recognized as a real expert on the subject. I have the book in a more recent (1949) paperback edition. Thought about trying to translate some of it several years back, but a lot of it is too technical for my English vocabulary, let alone French!

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I've completed a rough translation of Didier-Drevet's letter to the editor of "L'Republican de la Loire et de la Haute Loire," 28 November 1878. (Welcome corrections/edits - I may have missed some technical terms). It's posted above for anyone with historical metallurgical interest. He recommends upgrading Saint-Etienne's rolling machines and mandrels (mandrin). He lambasts the Parisian gun makers for using Belgian guns and barrels and relabeling them. However, lest anyone think the guns Saint-Etienne were making at the time were inferior, here are photos of an 1878 Didier Fusil (Barrel flats already pictured above):













And check out the arsenic case colors - not to American tastes but popular in France.

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I'm going to post four Saint-Etienne Barrel flats from 1900 to 1938. Two reasons: 1) Didier-Drevet may not have been the only one dating his barrels at this time; and 2) 70 mm (7.0 cm) seem to have been more common than assumed:

1). 1900, 6.5 chambered in cm; 17.0; Barrels by Ronchard Cizeron showing the proof stamp of St-Etienne in use from 1868-1900. Probably made at the end of the 19th Century and proofed for nitro powder. Expert option (see link) is that it was made, assembled or marketed by a gun dealer in Rouen.



http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20p%20q%20r/a%20ronchard%20cizeron%20fr.htm

2). 1908 (?)(date?) (no SN); 17.0; 6.5; No name; Saint-Etienne.





http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t78322-fusil-de-chasse-a-identifier

3). 1939-45; 18.4; 70 chambered in MM. Neltir believes it is C.G an Cie from Sociee Franaise de cycles. The name was registered 2 Feb 1916 and lasted to 1947. This gun used either Heutier or Belgian barrels



Bonsoir , je crois savoir que le marquage C.G & cie mane de la socit franaise de cycles fonde par Clment et Gladiator spcialise dans les armes de guerre et de chasse au Pr St Germain en Seine St Denis ,76 grande Rue . Cette marque a t dpose en 1916 le 2 fvrier et active jusqu'aprs 1947 . Ils utilisaient soit des canons heurtier soit des canons Belges en acier spcial Treble trial Stell import d'Autriche je crois me rappeler .Ces canons Belges taient exports par la fabrique Belge "The Liege United Arms C LTD depuis 1923 et nomme par la suite en 1946 FAL et puis F:A:U:L pour fabrique d'armes de liege et fabrique d'armes unie de Liege qui prs prouvaient les canons destins a l'export .Cette pratique tait utilise dans la priode sombre des annes 1939/45 et aprs suite l'occupation car la France manquait de produits armuriers .
Neltir .

http://www.passionlachasse.com/t15623p15-trouvaille-de-vieux-fusils

4). 1928 Ideal, chambered for 70 mm.





Trs bel IDEAL , il est de 1928 et normalement chambr en 12/65 , jecteurs automatiques , canon droit ray "supra" pour le tir balle et le tir dispersant plomb .
Le n 9EE/S est propos la vente en 1930 au prix de 4600 fr . A l'poque , a reprsente une somme !!

http://www.tircollection.com/t18237-et-j-ai-vu-aussi-ceci#239972

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Another dated w/SN Didier Drevet barrel in an unnamed Saint-Etienne gun with SN and chambered for 7 cm (2 3/4). The numbers stamped on these barrels (see the various ones above) not/not associated with a date - in this case "17502" - are the SN's of the gun itself stamped on the barrels by the gun maker. I've confirmed this several times. - Neat looking gun!! (And if you don't know where is "Avranches". take a look at the Normandy campaign breakout)

1). 1907 - 12613?; 18.4; 7 chambered in cm; Gun SN is 17502 (No idea what this means); No name; marketed (or assembled) by Geneaux of Avranches (Normandy):





http://www.gunbroker.com/item/667146081

And this date graph continues to expand (see page 1); if gun owners with DD dated barrels can supply gun maker names and gun maker SN's...soon we'll have a decent idea of French gun dates in the first 20 years of the 20th century.

I'll try to do this graph...starting with dates....adding proof marks, powder marks...using the SN's from the DD barrels..and then separate graphs for each manufacturer who used those barrels. I can do the analysis (and Ted, WC, Raimey, Larry et.al. have the knowledge) - But you all have the data.

And what's with all the 7.0 chambers? I have one a 1906 with a butt plate stamped "model expresse". Can I shoot modern 2 3/4" ammo?

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I've been trying to match dated pre WWI Didier Brevet barrels with makers' serial numbers without much success. Here are three Darnes"

1). A Darne from second paragraph first page with DD barrels dated 1900 chambered for 6.5 cm (pre circa 1912). No Darne gun SN is mentioned in Ted's original post about the barrels.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=396092&page=all

2). A Darne type 18 12 guage with Darne made barrels SN C692 on the barrels and 692 on the gun and chambered for 6.5 cm (pre c1912)
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/670294785








3) a Darne type 10 20 gauge with Darne made barrels SN C643 on a gun with the number 643 and chambered for 70 mm (post c1912).
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/671021768





I guess as far as Darnes go, there is no matching up the SN's. Did they have SN's?

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Argo,
The serial number of the Darne wreakage, with the 1900 date stamp, if that is a date stamp, in my above post is 759. I did make mention of that in the post.

Darne serial numbers make sense to whatever regime was running the company at the time the gun was built. All Darnes have a serial number, and, as far as I know, all clones do as well. We are discussing a company that has been in business for near 150 years, and in a country that has come out victorious in two world wars, after suffering under a scorched earth policy during same.
While it is possible to date a Darne by it's serial number, there are so many exceptions and running changes that one needs to be in contact with someone knowledgable at the factory to be able to do that. Example: It is impossible to accurately date ANY Darne with an SPC or SPL prefix-this referred to a custom order gun, and the serial numbers were not broken out by date of order. When Paul Bruchet was alive, it was very possible he would recall building a higher grade V model so marked, but, that was a long shot, as well. Further, even using the list that was posted on Geoffroy's website until it went dark some time ago, you only got close with a serial number-the combination of letters and numbers only identified a decade, not a year.
That list, incidentally, only applies to guns sold in Europe-anything could be and was imported to the states, which, was considered a secondary market.

Good luck in your quest. I believe it will be quite daunting.


Best,
Ted

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Here are three more Didier Brevet dated barrels and with these, there are definitely date markers.

1). 1903 - ????? 18.4; chamber? (ad says 65mm but no pic - assume it is 6.5cm); Buffard Armurier SN 5397. (no pics of the action or barrel flats - only the description)
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Juxtapose-Buffard-item-4014832.html

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

2). 1912 13689? 18.4; 65 chambered in mm; Note the 1912 shift to mm.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Juxtapose-St-Etienne-cal-12-70-Didier-DREVET-item-3577295.html

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
3): no date - 15035; 18.4; 65? Chambered in mm; note the lack of a date;
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Magnifique-rare-Didier-fusil-grand-prix-1900-canon-plume-item-3949391.html

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

With this we're pretty close to nailing down
-- the date of the change-over in Saint-Etienne from cm to mm,
-- the date of the first barrels made by DD following WWI, and
-- the end of DD punching dates on their barrels.
I'll post a proto-graph separately which will be based on these datapoints compiled on page 1 - repeated here.

1852 - DD begins to serial number and date his barrels
1855 - Gold Medal for Barrels - Exposition Universelle des produits de l'Agriculture, de l'Industrie et des Beaux-Arts de Paris 1855
1878 - ...????; 65mm chambered in mm; 18.6; Gun Maker: Didier Fusil; Sn: ?? (damas underlever hammergun)
1885 - ..4922; ??? chambered in mm; 17.0. Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ?? (from page 3)
1900 - ..8975; 6.5 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: Darne; gun sn??
1903 - ,,?????; chamber 6.5??; 18.4; Buford Armurier SN 5397
1904 - 11046; 6.5 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ?? gun sn:
1905 - 11604; ??? chamber?; 18.4; (unclear); Gun maker: ?? gun sn: ??
1906 - 11985; 7 chambered in cm; 17.0; Gun maker: Gerest Berthon; gun sn
1906 - 12075; 7 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1907?- 12537: 7 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ?? (from next page)
1907 - 12613? 7 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun Maker: Geneaux; gun sn: ; (from 4th page)
1908 - 12740; 6.5 chambered in cm; 17.0; Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1910 - 13184; 6.5 chambered in cm; 18.4: Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1912 - 13689? 65 chambered in mm; 18.4; Note the 1912 shift to mm. (page 4)
1918 - 14204; 65 chambered in mm; 18.4: Gun maker: ?? gun sn: 19488; (Skeetz's gun)
..................(possibly one of the very first commercial barrel sets made by DD after Nov 11, 1918).
1921?- 15034; (no date) 65? Chambered in mm; 18.4; note the lack of a date but if you calculate 300 barrels/year after 14204 from 1918, the pre WWI rate this will = circa 1921?); (I'm wrong - photo cut off the date - see below)
1924 - 2?871; 75mm (chambered in mm); 19.2 (10 gauge); gun number 1080 for Didier Brevet (SIFARM) gun labeled "Excelsior."

DD looks to have been making about
-- 1852-1885: serial numbers 0 - c5000; i.e. 200 or so a year? (actually probably the normal 250 once he got his reputation going with that 1855 gold medal).
-- 1885?-1914: Serial numbers c5000 - c14,000: 250-300 barrels a year from 1885 - 1914? (and given the history - possibly his maximum capacity for manufacture - Darne may have gone on their own barrel manufacture about 1900 because of this)(and was DD totally anal about his quality at this time? - the demand was there - looks like he refused to accelerate his barrel production)..
-- 1914-1918: Sn 14xxx-14204? Sports barrel production was probably zero from 14 Aug 1914- 11 Nov 1918 for obvious reasons.

Suffice to say for now, if your French Saint-Etienne barrels are chambered in cm...they are 1912 or earlier.

And by the way, it looks like there are a lot more pre WWI French shotguns chambered for 7cm/70mm (2 3/4) out there than previously understood.
.

Last edited by Argo44; 04/11/21 07:28 PM.

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Ted, thanks for the Darne list reminder. I just checked my doublegun link for it and unfortunately it had been photobucketed and was gone. I found it in the cloud in google images and downloaded it. This is as good as any place to re-park Geoffroy Gournet's serial number and date list for Darne guns. Gil

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Argo,
I'll remind everyone again, just as the list above advises-There are many exceptions.

I've handled at least a dozen different grades of genuine Darne guns that had serial numbers between 50 and 60 thousand. Hell, I've owned two of them. I have always hazarded a guess that they were pre 1923, based on old style proof marks and the odd (for Darne production) all digit serial numbers, as opposed to the letters/numbers more commonly seen.

My oldest Darne at the moment is the 6.5cm marked Halifax, which, would be considered to be in remarkable condition for a gun of pre 1912 vintage, and, one that does not seem to be cataloged in that era. I'll mention again that it has a 4 digit serial number, and has components that are marked with several different serial numbers from around the same sequence. I have no idea as to why this is. I don't find the catalog issue to be deeply troubling, the Halifax grade guns seemed to fade in and out depending on the economic times. There were three grades of Halifax just prior to WWII, fewer when economic times were booming.

All of the French guns I have seen that were marked for 2 3/4" chambers were modern production. I have handled guns that were stamped 65 that actually had 70mm chambers, and can document they were built with the 70mm chamber. The big switch seemed to occur in the early 1950s.

I see no reason to doubt that some were built and proofed that way prior to that becoming standard practice.

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Not directly related to Argo's very good effort at dating guns via serial number, but, a good example of some of the horseflies that show up in the yogurt:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100884559

Mr. Dealer has a gun he has listed as a Darne, R13. He does mention that he doesn't know what era it was produced in, and would like some help in that area.

A sharp eyed, and interested, student of the Darne guns emailed me, wondering just what the hell it was. I guessed (not having a photo of the barrel flats) that it could be a Bruchet, produced early after they received permission to use the Darne name, as it is engraved, similar to the method used to put the Bruchet name on the even earlier production Paul Bruchet guns. Student proceeded to ask for, and receive photos of the barrel flats.




It is neither a Darne, nor an R13. It appears to be an upgrade to a Francisque Darne gun, with that makers information stamped on the flats of the barrels, and the trademark Darne script applied to the opening lever.

If it had been a Bruchet produced gun, it would be an OK deal at that price. Based on what we can see, it is a lower grade clone aping a more expensive gun, and not a good deal. I can't help but notice that although the dealer provided barrel flat pictures to someone who requested them, he did not put them in the original ad, or correct/edit the ad. This bothers me a bit. It would bother you too, if you had graded as many Darne guns as lower in actual grade AFTER someone purchased them, as I have. That, sucks.

Many thanks to the sharp eyed Bill Wolf, who stumbled upon this little quandary to begin with.

Do be careful out there.


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Ted, thanks for the Darne background and you are indeed the Darne expert. And thanks GLS for the Darne SN list. Here's a question for Ted. There are two Darnes pictured above with SN's that are very close.
-- C692, a 12 gauge with a chamber stamp 6.5".
-- C643, a 20 gauge with a chamber stamp "70".

The two are post 1910 because of the letter/number SN per GLS's chart; C692 with the cm chamber stamp would be between 1912 to 1910 assuming 1912 was indeed the changeover year in Saint Etienne from cm to mm, could it be that both of these gun barrels were completed in 1912? Perhaps the chamber size wasn't stamped until the barrel was mated to a gun, which might explain why the 20 ga has a lower SN but has a chamber stamp in mm?

It would also mean that Darne built some 2,700 guns between 1910 and 1912. Is this possible?

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Argo,
Thanks, but, I consider myself only a student of the Darne. There is much to know, and much that cannot, from this juncture, be discovered.

In the early 20th century era, I don't believe Darne guns were serial numbered from a perspective of the number being useful for anyone outside of the production team/factory that built them. There wasn't a strict legal requirement that a sequential number be applied to finished guns in that era.
I believe the number was mostly useful for keeping production guns from having their pieces end up in guns they weren't fitted to. Although, I have demonstrated with my Halifax, that having a number on a part doesn't promise the numbers will all be the same, when everything is finished, for whatever reason that might be!

I'm sorry, but, I don't have an explaination and neat answer to your question. Truthfully, I don't believe anyone does. We don't know what the management of the factory was thinking or doing in 1910-1912. The French are great record keepers, but, twice they were occupied by Germans that forced their record keeping upon them. Did the factory records survive from that era? Hard to say, but, for what it is worth I spent a day in the larger public library in Lyon, and could discover almost nothing about the factory, the work, or the guns. Lots of stuff on Regis, who was a local hero of sorts.
Without a ledger of some sort, documenting what was going on, circa 1910-1912, we are pretty much in the same boat with the guys who pursue smaller American makers, Baker, Norwich, etc. I think it is important to only document what can actually be documented, so as to avoid "lore" which, is what existed when I first got into sliding breech guns about 30 years ago.

I'm sorry. When and if we can find some documentation, we will discover more. I am amazed at how much you have tracked down on Didier thus far.


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I've just gone through 500 ads on Naturabuy.fr. and have come up with some more food for thought. For the few interested in French guns, I'll make three posts on findings (and it's probably already common knowledge somewhere):

1). Didier-Drevet continued to date his barrels at least through 1924 - probably much later (and this was after DD combined with others including Darne to create SIFARM). (example to be posted)

2). Not all French guns were chambered for 65 cm during this period. I've found a lot of French guns chambered for 70, 75, 80 mm (7, 7.5, 8 cm) from 1890-1930. and it looks like 1870-1890 more than a few of the guns I've looked at were chambered for 7.5 cm or 75mm. (examples to be posted)

3). Saint-Etienne guns up to about 1890 appear to be chambered in mm.. So they changed to cm about 1890 and back to mm about 1912. This 1890? change is very possibly the visible evidence of the change-over from the CGS system (centimeter, gram, second) to MKS system (meter, kilogram, second) in 1889 referred to by Wildcattle. This 1889 date is as clear a date-marker as the 1912 date.

and an observation:

4) I can find no evidence that Parisian or Belgian guns ever used cm for chamber measurements - if it's in cm - it's likely Stephanois.

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1). Didier Drevet barrel dated 1924; 1924 - 2?871 (or 1?871 ??); gun number 1080 for gun labeled "Excelsior." (per other ads for Excelsior's in the period which are chronologically serial numbered apparently). 10 gauge ( 19.2); chamber: 75mm (chambered in mm)(3"). modle EXCELSIOR .
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-Artisanal-Francais-occasion-Calibre-10-item-2824879.html






Excelsior is a well-known brand created by DD and SIFARM about 1924. Here is a gushing publicity for it. It's funny - if you read the ad on naturabuy.fr above - the guy doesn't know what is Excelsior, has not looked at his gun and claims it was possibly exhibited in Paris in 1900 - odd for a guy asking 2800 Euros for the arm)(research shows he bought it in 2015 at another auction). I'm starting to think some gun dealers are like carpet merchants.

http://fcm25.canalblog.com/archives/2015/05/22/32098981.html


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Argo,
Are you sure it was not Francisque Darne that was part of SIFARM?

My post war F. Darne catalog is marked SIFARM, but, I have never had a Darne catalog that indicated they were part of that organization.


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Ted, you're right...F.Darne. My bad. I wasn't really researching Darne or SIFARM.


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Per above: 3). Saint-Etienne guns up to about 1889 appear to be chambered in mm.. So they changed to cm about 1889 and back to mm about 1912. This 1889? change is very possibly the visible evidence of the change-over from the CGS system (centimeter, gram, second) to MKS system (meter, kilogram, second) in 1889 referred to by Wildcattle. This 1889 date is as clear a date-marker as the 1912 date. Here are a few examples:

-- notice that there is a gun chambered for 75mm and one for 80mm in this group.

1). from first page: 1878 Didier-Drevet fusil (damascus) date on the gun (not the barrel). 18.6 (11 gauge); 65mm Chambers. (Date on the gun).
http://www.tircollection.com/t18880-un-beau-fusil-de-chasse-sobre-et-elegant






2). Pre-1889 Fusil Darne rotary gun (the ad claims the gun is 1892 - this cant be since the chambers are measured in mm; -- unless of couse as Ted pointed out previously the barrels were made pre 1889 and then mated to the gun several years later). 16.8 (17 gauge); 65 mm chambers; Ronchard Cizeron barrels. (makes me want to ask that Kansas dealer, who has two of these, for photos of their barrel flats - how are they marked - in cm or mm? and who made the barrels?)
http://www.naturabuy.fr/FUSIL-DARNE-MODEL-ROTARY-1892-item-3675740.html



3). 1885-1889 Manufance under lever hammer gun; 75mm chambers; 17.4 (14 gauge). Manufance was founded in 1885; the chamber is in mm thus 1889 or earlier.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-...em-3799057.html



4). Pre 1885. Saint Etienne under lever hammer gun Martinier Collin; 19.6 (8 guage - ad says 10 gauge but I think 10 gauge is 19.2); 80mm chambers; (Martinier and Collin founded the company which was sold in 1885; Their assistants then bought the company which ultimately became Manufrance.);
http://www.naturabuy.fr/rare-fusil-juxtapose-chiens-calibre-10-saint-etienne-item-2376357.html



5) 31). Pre 1889: Artisanal Saint-Etienne under lever hammer gun; 18.2; 65 mm chambered in mm. Identified as pre 1889 by the use of mm.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-item-3475156.html



6). Because I mentioned two pre-1889 guns from Manufrance and Matinier-Collin above, I'll expand the story for history's sake with this gun and a translation. Chambered in cm, it is post 1889 - and since it's proofed for "PT" probably 1900-1912 - but has a relevant story to it: -- edit: Well there's an obvious problem. Blanchon was Manufrance at the time this gun was made.- i.e. chambered in cm 1889-1912 So--the "Blanchon" on this gun can't be Pierre Blanchon. More examples of the carpet merchant nature of gun dealers - wonder if his history is correct?

Post 1889 Saint-Etienne under lever Blanchon: 18.2; 6.5 cm chambers;
http://www.naturabuy.fr/ANCIEN-FUSIL-BLACHON-SAINT-ETIENNE-COLLECTION--item-448377.html

Pierre Blachon arquebusier de mtier St Etienne fait la connaissance peu avant 1885 de Etienne Mimard fils d'armurier venu se perfectionner dans l'arquebuserie St Etienne aprs un sjour dans le mtier Lige. Donc ils font connaissance tant tous deux employs la St Martinier- Collin armurier St Etienne. Cette socit en 1885 est mise en vente et les deux hommes s'associent et achtent cette entreprise qui devient la Manufacture Franaise d'Armes et cycles de St Etienne, Etienne Mimard en est le Directeur gnral Prsident du Conseil d'Administration et Pierre Blachon Vice prsident et c'est lui qui sera le concepteur technique des premiers modles produits par la Manufacture avec notamment l'invention du fameux Robust dont la commercialisation sera lance en 1913 et qui en fera le fusil de chasse certainement le plus vendu au monde avec prs de 1 million d'exemplaires.
Pierre Blachon n'aura pas le temps de connaitre l'immense succs de son "Robust" puisqu'il meurt en 1914.


Pierre Blanchon gun maker in St Etienne a little before 1885 met Etienne Mimard, son of a gunsmith/gun dealer who had learned the gunmaking trade in St Etienne after an apprenticeship in Liege. They both were employees at Ste Martinier-Collin, gun makers in St Etienne. In 1885 this firm was put up for sale and the two men went together to buy it, It became La Manufacture Francaise dArmes et Cycles de St Etienne (Manufrance), Etienne Mimard becoming the Director General, President of the corporate board and Pierre Blanchon Vice President. It was he who came up with the technical conception of the first models produced by the manufacturer with notably the invention of the famous Robust, which was first launched in 1913 and which became the most sold shotgun in the world with nearly 1 million examples. Pierre Blanchon did not have time to know the huge success of his Robust because he died in 1914.


Last edited by Argo44; 07/29/17 11:34 PM.

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Argo,
Wonderful history. Very sad that Blanchon died in 1914. Fransisque Darne, who held several unique patents related to civilian firearms, and modifications to sliding breech designs, died in 1917. There was a patent photo floating around the 'net of a sliding breech gun with removable sidelocks and more conventional hammers and springs, as opposed to strikers, with patent assignment to Francisque Darne. I have not seen evidence that this design was ever produced.
It would appear that both men were lost to history in the prime of their lives, and, no doubt left French firearms design and production the poorer for it.


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Just experimenting with date identification. I picked this gun from Naturabuy.fr because the seller is a bit obstreperous and some write-ins in a manner uncharacteristically rude for the French, have challenged his identification:
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Cal-10-Manufacture-Armes-Cycles-Saint-Etienne-item-2206991.html

The ad says it is a Manufrance Ideal Jones underlever hammer gun tested for PP Pyroxillees powder; SN 19416; Cal 10; "80 mm chambers." Barrels are Ideal Hercule 3 Palmes demi-bloc. The ad claims that it was only available by special order overseen by the director of the workshop himself and would date from the period 1906-1914. In subsequent queries the seller mentions it was stamped Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint- Etienne. He blurs some pictures and cuts others off - Barrel flats can't be read, etc).

As a test case, here is my analysis: It may date from 1892-1900 - probably closer to 1900;
Manufrance - must be post 1885
Ideal must be post 1888
Chambered in cm must be1889 to 1912 (third picture of the forestock shows Cal 10, 7.5 - belying his claim the chambers are 80mm).
It is stamped with the Cycles address so must be post 1892.
Proofed PP so probably pre-1900.

The problem comes with the SN - have no idea how many guns Manufrance made from its creation in 1885 but 19,000 guns in 15 years (assuming they were consecutively numbered - which may not be) seems like a lot. And I wonder about the "Cal 10": 10 gauge St-Etienne guns I've looked at over the last few months are usually labeled 19.2 or thereabouts, not "Cal 10." Might be on the barrel flats of course.

Any observations? Am I close? (Im still learning).












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Argo,
I believe only French powder PT is truly smokeless. The earlier powders PJ, PM, and PS were considered semi-smokeless.
The "Powder Pyroxles" may indicate proof with powder T, for sure 1900 or later.
Just a guess, as anything I know about Manufrance I learned by accident, trying to find out something about a Darne.


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Thanks Ted...wasn't sure what "Pyroxillees" meant (smokeless?) and couldn't see the proof mark. So "PT"...post 1900 because of the powder; pre 1912 because of the chamber in cm. Pretty close to what the seller was advertising.

Edit, ran across this site on the manufrance Ideal:
http://www.gournetusa.com/ideal.htm

It dates an Ideal SN 21934 to 1903 and states that Manufrance was making 1500-2000 Ideal's a year. That would date the test gun above, SN 19416 to circa 1901, shortly after PT was introduced in St. Etienne.

The barrels came in different grades of Damascus or steel, stamped for the last one "ACIER HERCULE" followed by one to five pair of branches or palm determining the quality. If the Damascus were assembled with copper, the new steel was assembled with tin to keep lower temperature. Chopper lump, the technique used to assemble the locking lugs (dovetailed), are an integral part of the barrels. Chopper lump construction is believed to be stronger. The two lugs appear under the action and the model is stamped on the rear one. Here a "No 3R". The lowest grade is No 0. In 1187 were offered models 0 to 8. The letter R means that the barrels are compatible with smokeless powder and appeared in 1897. No 3R appeared in 1898. The barrels are stamped PS with a crown, a Saint-Etienne standard smokeless proof starting in 1901. There is on the barrels flat some indication of loading at proof and at regular use. Those barrels should have been proofed at 12,090 psi. The caliber available went from gauge 8,10,12,14,16,20,24,12mm and express caliber 500,450.375.303 british,405WCF,german 8x57, 600 Winchester and of course the 8 mm Label. The gun we have here is a 12 gauge chambered in 65 mm (very closed to 2 and half inch. Longer chambers, a 70 mm, were only available on a pigeon gun named "Perfection". It is a hercule steel 2 palms bored at 18.4 mm, 65 cm or 2 1/2 half inches. The rib is hollow, a typical feature of the Hexagone, they call it "canon plume" or feather barrel, and it weight XXXX. ..... Between the firing pin holes is stamped the serial number, 21934, year 1903. The average annual production those was 1500 to 2000 Ideal models.



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Poudre pyroxylee, like poudre blanche, is simply a general term for smokeless powder. Does not refer to a specific powder, like PT, PJ, etc.

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No, but, it does refer to smokeless powder, and only one French proof powder is truly smokeless.

Powder T.

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I need to get some data-points on La Manu SN's - working on it through relatives in Saint Chamond. I've been gradually compiling others based on what you all have posted over the years. For example,

From Larry:
post-1924. The little squiggle under the PT, on both the barrel flats and the water table, looks to me like the "supplementary mark for definitive proof in completely finished state". That's not a mark you see on many French doubles, and it's one that is more helpful in dating the gun.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=292630

And:

The "Crown" over "PT" around 1900 was for semi-smokeless T powder and after 1923 was for a presure of 12k psi at the 1st pressure point with smokeless T powder. Are semi-smokeless T and smokeless T the same and when does the gun in question date? Last the barrel maker had to put his name on the tubes(post 1923??) or the proofhouse would stamp them as foreign tubes as ARME ETRANGERE.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=131197&page=1

I'm making all of this - your comments - into a chronological encyclopedia (including the Darne SN post - which is a lot better than nothing) and at some point will put out a compendium. (gadzooks - somebody might already have done this?)




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Powder T wasn't introduced until 1900, and was always a smokeless powder.


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Battle of Magersfontein on 11 December 1899 - Boers pin down a whole British army in South Africa during the second Boar War using Mausers with smokeless powder.

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I'm continuing to compile a database of makers, barrel makers, marks, SN's etc 1880's to WWI. Here is a mystery for me. A "balance beam" trade mark on two different barrels. Any one have any idea what this means?

Example one, St. Etienne BLNE, 17.0 (16 ga), 6.5 chambers (in cm), double proofed for PT; SN is 23387 on gun, receiver, barrel. Here is the odd trademark: Above the "balance beam" TM appears to be the word "Depose"; below it (possibly) "Acier Comprese." It has to be post 1889 and pre 1913 (chambered in cm) and post c1900 (PT).








Example two: St. Etienne 18.2 (12 ga), 6.5 chambers (in cm), double proofed for PT. Ronchard Cizeron barrels (running rabbit mark on the barrel flats + the name). Gun SN on both receiver and barrel rib is 10,400. Above the "balance beam" TM appears to be the word "Depose" and below possible "Acier Tixphill"?? (second word unclear). It has to be post 1889 and pre 1913 (chambered in cm), and post c1900 (proofed for PT with the feathers). The gold medal could be the one given to Petrus at the 1904 St. Etienne exposition... meaning the barrel was made between 1904 and 1912 - or it could be one given to Ronchard-Cizeron in 1889 at the Universal Exposition (probably the latter since medaille d'or appears on RC barrels with Petrus's name).







There are two other identifying marks on this gun. Initial "D&C on the left barrel and "Choke Rectifie de Peuvel Petrus. Per this site, Petrus was a barrel maker, equipper, and barrel polisher before 1890. He received the Esoffier prize in 1895 and a gold medal at the 1904 St. Etienne exposition. He worked with Ronchard Cizeron and other prestigious arms makers.

https://www.pressreader.com/france/armes-de-chasse/20141216/281857231868305

Appreciate any help on the "balance beam" (or maybe a machine press?) TM. Thanks. Edit: The "Acier Compresse" is likely just a direct French translation of "Compressed Steel" which was used on the first Whitworth steel barrels in 1860's?

Found a couple of more Ronchard Cizeron barrels, first is 6.5 with the "balance" mark - looks like the words below are "Acier Comprime." Second is "65". (one pre 1912, the other post 1912). the mark does look like a press of some sort. I wonder if this is yet another Cizeron mark to go with the running rabbit?





Acier comprim = procd pour augmenter les caractristiques d'un acier donn par croussage. On augmente surtout la limite lastique au dtriment de l'allongement rupture en consommant les dislocations et lacunes du rseau cristallin. A l'poque, on faisait ce traitement chaud pour diminuer ou "supprimer" les dfauts de compacit du matriau.

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I know there's not much more to say but I continue to plow ahead...with proof marks, dates, SN's etc. It's already been done but I think I can make it easier for future French gun shooters.

Here is a question...a Ronhard Cizeron hammer gun barrel, 6.5 (1889-1912) with the "Acier Comprime" press symbol along with with PS proof. http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-chasse-saint-etienne-chiens-calibre-16-65-item-3628117.html



Another site discussing a different gun says this about PS: "The letter R means that the barrels are compatible with smokeless powder and appeared in 1897. No 3R appeared in 1898. The barrels are stamped PS with a crown, a Saint-Etienne standard smokeless proof starting in 1901.". http://www.gournetusa.com/ideal.htm

I sure thought smokeless powder came with the PT mark from about 1900. So what is PS?

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PS was an earlier, semi-smokeless powder. It continued to be used after 1900, but, had been in use prior to that as well.

The only R mark I've ever seen was for re-proof.

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Argo, here's some information on powder that may help a little with dating. From an article in Gun Digest by Lee Kennett:

PJ and PS were both used as proof powders from 1896-1914.
PM and PR, same thing from 1898-1914.
PT came into use in 1900, and was the only powder used for proof post-1914.

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before the "T" powder there were the S, J and M, with the corresponding proof marks.
I have a Pirlet boxlock with all three stamps PS, PJ and PM.
The "S powder was deemed the hardest to pass and was used by la manu long after T was introduced.
The "R" only applies to Ideal model # as in "No 3R".
The poster is correct in that it was supposed to be used in conjunction with Nitro proof relative to BP proof. It stands for "renforce" e.g. reinforced.
Of course, this went away in the 20s, when nitro was the standard.

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I think Kennett's reference to R powder likely comes from Baron Engelhardt, whose work he was basically updating. Engelhardt's original article shows the PM proofmark and says: "For barrels proved with smokeless R and M powders, adopted May 14, 1898. But it does not show a PR proofmark. He also shows only the PJ proofmark when referring to both J and S powders, which were adopted together on March 30, 1896. Looks like something slipped in the editorial process. Kennett's later article does show a PR proofmark.

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there is no R powder!

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Took a look in General Journee's "Tir des Fusils de Chasse". He doesn't list R, so it appears that Engelhardt was in error, and Kennett simply copied his mistake. Interestingly, Journee provides a chart which shows 4 different varieties of PJ. Only one each for the others (S, M, T).

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Powder R? That is a new one on me.

Again, the only time I have seen the letter R on the flat of a French gun, is under a trident, in reference to reproof. The trident was at St. Etienne, and if under a crown, it was reproof at Paris.


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We got the "no R" thing, Ted. But interesting in going back to Journee--which I don't do as often as I should--I found that there are 4 different varieties of J. In addition to just plain old J (or J-0--I can't do the sub-numbers), there are also J1, 2, and 3. According to Journee's chart, while they all have the same % of nitrocellulose, they differ in the number of grains per gram. T has the highest % of nitrocellulose: 98%, compared to 83% for the J's, 71% for M, and 65% for S.

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"Were" four varities, Larry. Further, I'm going to suggest if the differences between them had been critical, it would have turned up in the proof marks.
It didn't. Proof with powder J is proof with powder J.
This seems to be one of those things that didn't matter for very long, and didn't matter all that much when it did matter.


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Well I'm still curious about what Geoffrey Gournat is saying on this site referencing the manufrance Ideal:
http://www.gournetusa.com/ideal.htm

"The two lugs appear under the action and the model is stamped on the rear one.... Here a "No 3R"...The letter R means that the barrels are compatible with smokeless powder and appeared in 1897. No 3R appeared in 1898."

The photos in the article show none of this. So is the "R" the author refers on the lug? Is it only relevant to Manufrance Ideals as Wildcattle said or does it apply to other Manufrance guns? The number in front of the "R" looks to be equivalent to the Ideal model number as Ted mentions but what about that "R"? It's odd that there is a definitive statement made about an "R" but no photo and no-one here has heard of it or seen it.

And finally French blogs are full of knowledgeable posters dating early Ideals and Robusts based on Serial Numbers. It looks like Manufrance records of their SN's are intact and known. Is this true?

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Gene,
It might be. The Manufrance building remains on Rue de la Convention, in St. Etienne, with the chamber of commerce building next to it, and the Darne works across the side street. The old Manufrance building stretches for more than a few blocks, and is enormous.
But, it has been divided up into retail space and shops. It had been out of business for some time when I was there, and I didn't seek out information on those guns.

Geoffroy speaks English as a third language, behind French and Waloon, and I have a bit of trouble communicating with him, and noticed much the same on his website. If you speak French as well as you write it, you could ask him yourself. He responds to email pretty much daily, in my experience.
If the folks on your French blogs are based in St. Etienne, they may well have been employed in the gun trade, or, moonlighted in it, and would have a depth of knowledge we here could never approach. At one time, a big percentage of the population in that town made their living, or part of it, in the gun trade.
As I have pointed out, Manufrance guns were not something I was, or, am, interested in. I'm sure they are superb guns. A friend owns an Ideal, a Costo and a Robust, nobody can hit anything with the Ideal, and the other two have been rode hard and put up wet, in addition to being hard to hit anything with. All three have pretty significant pitting in the barrels, not uncommon on old French guns, but, I've moved on from my pitted barrels phase. I was distracted enough with the Darnes, I guess.
Good luck.

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Ted

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Ted, my in-laws are down in St, Chamond. Their company has made parts for French Aerospace enterprises for 60 years. They're not In St. Etienne proper but are interconnected with the tech community there. We'll see what we can come up with. All of them talk about "La Manu"...Socialist France of the 1930's.

As for pitting in pre WWII French guns, a lot of those guns were buried during the occupation.

Of all the French bloggers..."Neltir" seems to be the best. He is irascible and grumpy but shares his knowledge.

French and Walloon are identical with a few idioms...now if you mention "Flemand"..that's another story.

Ted, there are dozens of identifying markers for early 20th century French guns..This line has been a great education for me...and I will compile what we come up with.

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Gene,
I do need to clarifiy something. While I do struggle a bit to understand Geoffroy, the man has done outstanding gunsmithing and engraving for me, and has always followed instructions to the letter.
I've progressed over the years to the point I can do my own maintenance, light repair, trigger adjustments, and simple stock work on my Darnes, and only tend to bother Mr. Gournet for larger projects, and he has never disappointed me, either doing the work or overseeing someone else.
I wish I lived closer, I'd make it a point to take him hunting.

Yes indeed, many guns were hidden during the two occupations of France. But, I have seen so many pitted bores, not just on French guns, that it makes me wonder if there was a cult of neglect as well, in Europe. I come from poor enough stock that things had to be maintained, as you couldn't afford to replace them often.

But, not all my friends and neighbors seem to feel the same way.


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Ted

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Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
"Were" four varities, Larry. Further, I'm going to suggest if the differences between them had been critical, it would have turned up in the proof marks.
It didn't. Proof with powder J is proof with powder J.
This seems to be one of those things that didn't matter for very long, and didn't matter all that much when it did matter.


Best,
Ted


Well Ted, we might say that powder J doesn't matter at all now, and hasn't for over a century . . . as far as proof goes. But those other varieties--which Journee explains were used in pistols or for hunting loads--were important enough for a noted French ballistician to include them in a work which delves much deeper into the subject than any source I've read. Sort of like ignoring the Dupont work from the 1930's comparing the pressure curve of several smokeless powders to black powder, showing that there's not nearly the difference that many more modern sources told us to expect.

When we ignore information from the past, it often seems someone has to go back and reinvent the wheel . . . unnecessarily, if only we'd paid attention to what we used to know and somehow managed to forget.

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WC commented above: "Nitro proof relative to BP proof."

Curious about "BP proof." You guys know this but might clarify what this is and when it started ended. Edit: That's the mark for Jean Bruel..the barrel maker

Here is a line about Zapatto Freres gun with a BP on the barrel we never identified; is this the BP referred to? http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...2760#Post442760


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Larry,
Proof with powder J, no matter the type of gun, or which version of powder J, tells you all you really need to know.

It isn't proofed with a modern, smokeless powder. You should adjust your loads and use accordingly.

I never suggested we ignore that. But, no matter which version was used in what gun, it was still marked, at the time of proof, as proofed with powder J.

And that is all you, or I, as non leading ballisticians, who aren't writing books on that subject, really need to know.

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Ted

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Ted, I'd suggest you write a letter to General Journee and tell him that . . . but he's dead. You have to remember that this is a worldwide BB. Suppose we stumble upon a Frenchman who wants to know what a load specifying J1, 2, or 3 means? Isn't that kinda like knowledge on all those different kinds of twist/Damascus barrels?

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Originally Posted By: Argo44
WC commented above: "Nitro proof relative to BP proof."

Curious about "BP proof." You guys know this but might clarify what this is and when it started ended.

Here is a line about Zapatto Freres gun with a BP on the barrel we never identified; is this the BP referred to? http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...2760#Post442760



Argo, I can't find any French proofmark that used the letters BP. It'd also be very unusual to find a proofmark on the underside of the rib.

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Ted, I'd suggest you write a letter to General Journee and tell him that . . . but he's dead. You have to remember that this is a worldwide BB. Suppose we stumble upon a Frenchman who wants to know what a load specifying J1, 2, or 3 means? Isn't that kinda like knowledge on all those different kinds of twist/Damascus barrels?


A Frenchman would contact the proof house in St. Etienne, and have more information than he ever wanted to know, or, needed to know, about proof with powder J, Larry. Nobody loads anything with powder J today, so, what difference would it make?

The proof mark was PJ under crown, Larry-NOT PJ1, PJ2 or, whatever. There isn't much more to know than the gun was proofed with an obsolete, semi-smokeless powder.

I have skillfully avoided any and all Damascus roulett in my sporting life, Larry. But I'm not a barrel construction purist, anything under abou .025 in a conventional steel barrel I pass on, also.

I'll leave Damascus barrels to those who want them.

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Ted

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Ted, why do we bother trying to compare modern loads to what was originally used in a gun that was proofed a century ago? So much of J1 or J2 . . . what does that mean NOW? Might be of interest to some folks that are into stuff you're not into. Just like Damascus.

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Larry,
If there had been a big diference between the four varieties of J powder, it would have been marked on the flats of the gun which variety the gun was proofed with.

It wasn't. End of story.

We pay attention to modern loads in old guns because we like our fingers and eyes right where they are. The option, I suppose, is using something modern, but, even those fail, occasionally-I'm not chasing any K guns at the moment.

French proof, even with the old powders, was nothing to sneer at. If my Halifax had been proofed with powder J (it wasn't) I'd likely still feed it the 2 3/4" low noise and recoil Winchester loads. The wall thickness is a bit off the charts with that old gun, as it is on many old French guns, and I don't worry much about it letting go, but, it is over 100 years old, and a pound of prevention is worth a ton of cure, in this case.

I'd bet they exist, but, in the years I have been paying attention, I haven't seen a good photo of a blown up French gun. It doesn't seem to be a huge problem.
Powder J, M, S, or T.


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Ted

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This is an ad on the net now:

Manufrance "Ideal" grade "2R" in very nice condition!
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100903700

No photos of the "R," but re-reading Geoffrey and Wildcattle's posts, I think WC meant the "R" is a stamp on the lug of a Manufrance Ideal which is supplemental to the proof stamp meaning it has been proofed for Nitro...similar to the "BP" Biirmingham proof...i.e. it will be in addition to the PT, PS.. stamp(s)..and the Ideal model number will precede the "R". Haven't seen it myself but would like to see a photo for historical reasons....and to know when that started and ended.



And this ad for a book on Guns International answers my previous question about Manufrance Serial numbers - guess I should get the book and will do so next time I'm in France.

Le Fusil de Chasse "Ideal" by Jean-Claude Mounrnetas
Description:
This soft bound book is about the history and development of the Manufrance Ideal model round action trigger plate shotguns and rifles with many pictures and diagrams and the coveted serial number to date chart.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100397050

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Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Larry,
If there had been a big diference between the four varieties of J powder, it would have been marked on the flats of the gun which variety the gun was proofed with.

It wasn't. End of story.



Ted, it's not all about proof. Let's say someone finds reference to an old load used in X, Y, or Z old French gun. (Have you skipped over Drew's very useful references to standard loads in vintage American guns???) Now we're talking about SERVICE PRESSURE vs PROOF. And let's say that said load uses J1 (which Journee tells us is useful for waterfowl loads); or J2, which he tells us works well, generally, in hunting loads. (Interestingly, he also tells us that J is only useful for bullets in rifled weapons, velocities between 400-650 meters per second. So of no value at all for those of us looking for something that will work in a shotgun.) So if you stop at proof, you're bypassing everything that might have been known at the time about which loads would work well in a given shotgun, regardless of what powder was used to proof it.

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Sorry, Larry, but, here, and now, in realville, where I live, it is just so much minutia.

I might use a circa 1900 French shotgun. If I found a bunch of 1900 vintage ammunition, I wouldn't use it.

I don't typically run loads that are near proof loads, either, but, there are exceptions. I'd bet the 1 1/4oz Federal I chamber in my Silver Snipe are pretty hot, but, the gun has seen like 4 of them in the last 20 seasons.

I'm good.



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Ted

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Ted, we're mostly sxs shooters. Many of us vintage sxs shooters. The Silver Snipe is a fine gun, but it's neither vintage nor a sxs. Minutia is what we're all about. How many questions do you see here about "What can I shoot in my _____ made in _______?" A good clue would be, when that information is available, what loads were used in that gun back when it was made?

If you want to ignore the minutia, I'd suggest you start a Silver Snipe BB. smile Then everyone would agree with you that we don't need no stinkin' minutia.

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Larry,
People want to know what they can use in an old (whatever) TODAY, not what someone could or did use 120 years ago. Nobody can use any of the different versions of powder J TODAY, because it has been obsolete since long before most of us were born ( you, excepted, of course).
Knowing what you can or should use in the gun will be derived, hopefully, from an understanding of what level old gun was proofed at, and with a bit of reverence to the age of the gun, which didn't matter to the original owner, but, hopefully does to the current caretaker. We have access to low pressure loads that should take the worry out of using old guns, and that have NOTHING in common with loads that were used a century or more in the past.
Seeing the condition of many old European gun bores, I'd suggest that loads featuring black powder and corrosive priming were available long after smokeless was considered normal. Perhaps they were substantially cheaper?
When you stumble on to that keg of pre-WWI powder J, Larry, let not your heart be troubled thinking I will pester you for some of it to use in my guns.
I promise, I won't.


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Ted

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So all of Drew's posts from contemporary sources providing the ORIGINAL service loads for vintage guns are of no value? Wow.

There's a whole lot of understanding to be gained from BOTH original proof AND original service loads, Ted. For example, I expect a whole bunch of folks posting here now likely understand (maybe even YOU do, although I'm wondering based on the apparent thickness of your skull) that a reference to "psi" in 1900 isn't the same as a reference to "psi" currently. Has to do with crusher vs piezo-electronic measurements, which are not the same. If you don't understand that, you don't understand either proof or service pressure data from historical references.

Exactly how do you think we determine just how low the pressures should be on our current "low pressure loads"? Even relatively modern references to proof can be confusing. Confused me when I wrote an article on the subject for Shooting Sportsman. Turns out that 850 bar isn't really 850 bar as measured by transducers. Nope, it's a lead crusher measurement. (Or at least it was for the Brits.) Which means that what we thought we knew about appropriate pressures for 850 bar guns was wrong. Thanks to a response from the Birmingham Proof House, we got that one straightened out.

No one is suggesting using century-old powder in current loads. But it's certainly valuable--to some of us if not to you (and certainly not to you if you're only worried about your Silver Snipe)--to know the characteristics--shot charge, velocity, pressure--of the service loads that were used in those vintage French guns with a PJ proofmark. If we can find that data, what better guidance can there be for us to use in working up loads using modern components?

But hey, Ted . . . just go on shooting your triple proofed Darnes and your Silver Snipe. No worries, mate. And do your best to tell us that any references to "period" literature is of no value, since those are just old loads. And after all, we're using plastic hulls and plastic wads and modern powder, so who the hell cares anyhow?

Well, some of us do, even if you don't. So if you have nothing constructive to contribute, why don't you just . . . not contribute to the particular discussion in question? I'd say "butt out" but I'm working on being polite.

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Larry and Ted, there are only 4 or 5 on the board who know something about French guns and I've learn a heck of a lot from both of you. As for the dispute about PJ...if PJ is stamped on the gun, it is a date maker for us. However, it's also nice to know the breakdown of the mixes of PJ as an intellectual exercise. So thanks to both of you for expanding our knowledge of the French gun industry at the turn of the century, a special interest of mine.

By the way, we've also established firmly that there were a lot of French guns at the turn of the last century being chambered for shells other than 65mm (6.5 cm). Wish we had a catalog for French shotgun shells from that time period along with the loads. Now that would be interesting. (edit: Why? Because I own a 1906 16ga Gerest Berthon Staint Etienne gun chambered for 7.0 cm)

In any event, here is another gun I'd like to date because I believe it gives a time marker for dating Zavattero Frerres shotgun serial numbers. This gun is on gunbroker: http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/688306821









The seller doesn't know the model or date - I believe it is Zavattero Frerres made between 1908-1912..SN 49697.
-- Per the last image I believe this is Zavattero Frerres (we went through this in another line and decided the letters in the oval were ZFr) http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=443491&page=1

-- Chambered in centimeters (cm) so 1889 - 1912
-- Proofed for PT - post 1900
-- Received a prize in London 1908 - so post 1908 (I've confirmed ZFr received a prize at the 1908 London Exhibition).




ZFr was founded in 1880 and lasted until 1965. (This gun doesn't have the CZ or FZ stamps which were ZFr models which came out in the 1920's).

I don't know the SN of the ZFr gun we commented on above (previous) line - it wasn't photographed. I believe the guns were consecutively numbered more or less....and will try to expand on this. There's a ZFr gun on Passion la chasse SN 97701 with a comment by Neltir which he dated to July 1951.
(Graph points:
.....1880 - 0;
.....1910 - 49697;
.....1951 - 97701 ( minus four years 1914-1918)(and 5 years 1940-45)
a graph could be constructed but the SN's for the company must exist somewhere because Neltir had the SN down to the month).
(http://www.passionlachasse.com/t22381-identification-fusil-juxtapose
The barrels for that gun were made in Belgium by Lovenfosse Hardy & Fils - I think he refers to the crossed rifles with stars at the bottom of the proof:




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Argo, you've been doing great work. Those prizes, the CM dates and the PJ narrow it down significantly. Expect that's about as good as you're going to get unless you come up with a ZF serial number list.

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Originally Posted By: Argo44
WC commented above: "Nitro proof relative to BP proof."

Curious about "BP proof." You guys know this but might clarify what this is and when it started ended.

Here is a line about Zapatto Freres gun with a BP on the barrel we never identified; is this the BP referred to? http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...2760#Post442760



By the way I knew I'd seen that logo "BP" or whatever before. It's on the barrels of the French "Wonder" lock gun I posted to show that my plain Jane war trophy 12 bore was not alone. http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=449178 It looks like it's actually "JB" and that we've been looking at it upside down. I wonder if it is actually a symbol for barrel makerJean Breuil? (Not sure of this - the font looks identical but to contort the BP into a JB would require some doing - maybe having it stamped backwards).


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Come on you Fusil de Chasse Jusxtapose Francophlies. All of you have lots of dating data. And you are cache-ing it like a French chef (who would never ever give you the whole recipe). It's now time to give up your secrets and post it here - even if piecemeal. We can "crowd source" the time chart. (if it has x it's post yyyy... etc.).

And all those anonymous serial numbers on Saint Etienne guns? Someone - one of the 120 gun makers in the city - put them there. Compile a chart..you'll get a statistics type of answer. (look at that "wonder" lock - we now have two datapoints...and can build on that).

(I'm tempted to buy that book on the IDEAL and scan the SN chart...everyone in France seems to have it.). And I'm wondering how many more records are out there.

Look, 50 years ago after coming back from Vietnam I took a summer job in the University of Alabama Geological Survey office. They had a warehouse full of geological core borings going down 18,000' but hadn't a clue on where they were bored. I researched the markings on the huge warehouse holdings, did research on the USGA publications and identified almost 90% of the core holdings, determining they'd once been analyzed. (long before the internet..i.e. books) This is not rocket science.

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
So all of Drew's posts from contemporary sources providing the ORIGINAL service loads for vintage guns are of no value? Wow.

There's a whole lot of understanding to be gained from BOTH original proof AND original service loads, Ted. For example, I expect a whole bunch of folks posting here now likely understand (maybe even YOU do, although I'm wondering based on the apparent thickness of your skull) that a reference to "psi" in 1900 isn't the same as a reference to "psi" currently. Has to do with crusher vs piezo-electronic measurements, which are not the same. If you don't understand that, you don't understand either proof or service pressure data from historical references.

Exactly how do you think we determine just how low the pressures should be on our current "low pressure loads"? Even relatively modern references to proof can be confusing. Confused me when I wrote an article on the subject for Shooting Sportsman. Turns out that 850 bar isn't really 850 bar as measured by transducers. Nope, it's a lead crusher measurement. (Or at least it was for the Brits.) Which means that what we thought we knew about appropriate pressures for 850 bar guns was wrong. Thanks to a response from the Birmingham Proof House, we got that one straightened out.

No one is suggesting using century-old powder in current loads. But it's certainly valuable--to some of us if not to you (and certainly not to you if you're only worried about your Silver Snipe)--to know the characteristics--shot charge, velocity, pressure--of the service loads that were used in those vintage French guns with a PJ proofmark. If we can find that data, what better guidance can there be for us to use in working up loads using modern components?

But hey, Ted . . . just go on shooting your triple proofed Darnes and your Silver Snipe. No worries, mate. And do your best to tell us that any references to "period" literature is of no value, since those are just old loads. And after all, we're using plastic hulls and plastic wads and modern powder, so who the hell cares anyhow?

Well, some of us do, even if you don't. So if you have nothing constructive to contribute, why don't you just . . . not contribute to the particular discussion in question? I'd say "butt out" but I'm working on being polite.



Larry,
Calm down. If you want to study service loads that were available to hunters in France, circa 1900 or so, you may feel free. But, Joe average, with a cool old French double, still working 40-60 hours a week, simply doesn't have to do that. He can simply pick a load out of a catalog, that runs about 30% less than proof pressure, 12,000 PSI in the case of single proof with powder J (any variety of powder J, by the way) and he is golden. He can consult a current reloading catalog, and load the same loads up for himself, if he is so inclined. Further, it is quite common to find arms that were double or triple proofed with powder J, making the excercise of wringing ones hands over what load to use a bit redundant.

Welcome to France, Larry.

When it comes to actually shooting the gun, today, study of what was won't get you too far. The good duck load you mentioned, above, isn't legal to use anymore. The proofhouse in St. Etienne gave you the information you needed to know, right on the flats.
Worried the gun may have been honed out of proof? Measure it, and compare it to what the proofhouse said it measured, the day it was proofed. See what level of proof it passed, and run it below that. Easy.
You are correct, all of my own guns can be used without regard to pressure of the ammunition, a feature that has come in handy more times than I care to remember. A triple proof Darne, proofed at 18,000 psi, eliminates any non sense about what ammunition I will be using that day.
The study of antique ammunition is an interesting one,
I'll grant you that. But, it won't help you too much in finding or developing a load for a similarly aged gun, with the components and powder we use today.

In no way did I suggest that the study of "Any" (your writing, above) period literature was of no use, Larry. Don't put your words on the board and credit them to my keyboard.

Gene,
I always assumed that little mark you are seeking information about was a barrel makers mark. I have seen it a few times, but, never had a manufacturer to associate it with. There were likely dozens of barrel makers in France in that era.
I have no firm information on that mark, however. I, also, doubt the proofhouse would have stamped it on the rib.

Best,
Ted

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Gene,, I have the book and will scan it for you. Although I won't be home until Tuesday.

Much as I think highly of French guns, my French Collection currently consists of just an Ideal and a Parisian sidelock. So not much help in the piecing together of the St Etienne history.


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Merci CB..... It would be an excellent post for this line. Shoot well.


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I wish.

No seasons open yet up here. So I'm whiling the weekend away at the cottage on Georgian Bay. Bossing the kids around.


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Here's a list James sent me some time ago regarding the Ideal. I'll scan Mournetas Robust models and dates of mfg in a day or so. I will also scan the model numbers and dates mfg. for the Ideal models and dates:

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Gil, my understanding is that is a list of dates for barrel production, not necessarily completed gun production.


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James, I've got Mournetas's books for the Ideal and Robust. I'll scan the tables for each and post if someone doesn't beat me to it. That'll give date ranges by model numbers for each shotgun. Gil

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Amazing. Ask a question and guys start pulling stuff out from under their beds. It's so difficult to date Saint Etienne guns.....except maybe it won't be that difficult anymore. Simply amazing.

Edit, while here, I want to repost the Darne SN chart previous forwarded. Ted warns that there are some demonstrable inaccuracies but it is a reference tool:


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Lol Gene.

I hadn't contributed to this thread before because I was kinda putting Manufrance production aside from the smaller workshop output. Always happy to spill what I know....I just assume others already know what I know. Have learned so much here but still think of myself as a beginner.


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Originally Posted By: Argo44
Amazing. Ask a question and guys start pulling stuff out from under their beds. It's so difficult to date Saint Etienne guns.....except maybe it won't be that difficult anymore. Simply amazing.


Argo, not to be a pessimist . . . but the real issue, on top of a whole bunch of small St. Etienne shops, is the fact that the French never used a date code. In contrast to the Germans, Italians, Spanish, etc. Nor are there quite as many handy clues as there are on British guns, thanks to the number of times they changed their rules of proof. Even a big company like Verney-Carron can't give dates on pre-WWII guns. When I inquired about one I owned years ago, they were very helpful: pages from their catalog pinning down the model and grade, and providing the year in which those guns were first offered. But no serial number list or anything like that.

Nevertheless, a whole lot of very useful information is being turned up. Bravo!

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Gil has scanned his book on Manufrance and forwarded the following Serial number list for the Ideal and Robust. Here are the tables for the IDEAL. I'll translate the first half of the first page per below:

Dating of the IDEAL by Registration Number

Currently, three lists are circulating concerning the dating of the IDEAL by their numbers. One at least is complete fantasy, having been established by suppositions about what has been written badly interpreted. Another of a more serious origin seems to have been established according to the production of the barrels. This has nothing to do with the finished arms delivered for sale each year.

On this topic we have an official document furnished by the head office of the manufacturer on page 45 of the 1898 catalogue. Here below is the total production of the IDEAL shotguns for the first 10 years (11,732 shotguns produce in total):

1887: 630
1888: 1,152
1889: 1,925
1890: 2,713
1891: 3,724
1892: 4,683
1993: 5,761
1894: 6,995
1895: 8,107
1896: 10,239
1897: 11,732

These numbers corroborate those in the document given by the official source that we are publishing below.


(Note, these posts have come out quite fuzzy - probably because of the host photo resolution. I will work to get better copies and/or will type it out manually as time permits.) (edit: I'll post the page on the numbers produced and serial numbers up to 1945 hand typed below. But frankly there are some almost indecipherable - to me at this point - additional pages that I don't understand unless I get concrete examples):

Year..Production.Serial Number
1887 . . . 630 . . . . . . . 001 to 630
1888 . . . 522 . . . . . . . 631 to 1152
1889 . . . 783 . . . . . . 1153 to 1935
1890 . . . 778 . . . . . . 1936 to 2713
1891 . . .1011 . . . . . . 2715 to 3724
1892 . . . 959 . . . . . . 3725 to 4683
1893 . . .1078 . . . . . . 4684 to 5761
1894 . . .1234 . . . . . . 5762 to 6995
1895 . . .1112 . . . . . . 6996 to 8107
1896 . . .2132 . . . . . . 8106 to 10239
1897 . . .1493 . . . . . .10240 to 11732
1898 . . .1509 . . . . . .11733 to 13241
1899 . . . 814 . . . . . .13242 to 15055
1900 . . .2008 . . . . . .15056 to 17083
1901 . . .2014 . . . . . .17084 to 19077
1902 . . .1637 . . . . . .19078 to 20714
1903 . . .1489 . . . . . .20715 to 22203
1904 . . .1489 . . . . . .22204 to 23692
1905 . . .1798 . . . . . .23692 to 25490
1906 . . .1913 . . . . . .25491 to 27403
1907 . . .2040 . . . . . .27404 to 29443
1908 . . .2094 . . . . . .29444 to 31537
1909 . . .2014 . . . . . .31538 to 33551
1910 . . .1875 . . . . . .33552 to 35426
1911 . . .1742 . . . . . .35427 to 37168
1912 . . .1700 . . . . . .37169 to 38868
1913 . . .1000 . . . . . .38869 to 39868
1914 . . . 717 . . . . . .39869 to 40595
1915/19180
1919 . . . 506 . . . . . .40596 to 41091
1920 . . .1282 . . . . . .41092 to 42372
1921 . . .1306 . . . . . .42373 to 43680
1922 . . .2191 . . . . . .43681 to 45871
1923 . . . 655 . . . . . .45872 to 48526
1924 . . .2561 . . . . . .48527 to 51087
1925 . . .2809 . . . . . .51088 to 53896
1926 . . .2861 . . . . . .53897 to 56757
1927 . . .2819 . . . . . .56758 to 59576
1928 . . .2884 . . . . . .59577 to 62460
1929 . . .1367 . . . . . .62461 to 63827
1930 . . .1816 . . . . . .63828 to 65643
1931 . . .1624 . . . . . .65644 to 67267
1932 . . .3894 . . . . . .67268 to 71162
1933 . . .1538 . . . . . .71163 to 72700
1934 . . .1000 . . . . . .72701 to 73700
1935 . . . 101 . . . . . . 72701 to 72801
1936 . . . 496 . . . . . . 73802 to 74209
1937 . . .1990 . . . . . .74210 to 76199
1938 . . .1859 . . . . . .76200 to 78058
1939 . . . 368 . . . . . .78059 to 78426
1940/1945. 0


The preliminary dating of an Ideal in an above post SN 19416 (page 5,6) can now be checked. It was initially identified as pre 1900 based on chambers in CM, proofed for PP, etc. Ted commented that it was actually proofed for PT, so the date was moved to post 1900 possibly 1901. Per the above chart 19416 would have been made in 1902. The seller claimed 1906-1914.

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There are elements of this chart that I just don't understand. Bis is the French equvilent of "sub-category" or of 1 and 1a. Tre is the equivalent of a second sub-category, But without examples, I just can't read these charts. Perhaps someone can interpret. (edit: These are model numbers.)







I'll give a rough translation of the last paragraph.

Warning: the user can expect to find a chart on the beginning or the end of a model number series for the IDEAL from the end of the 19th and from the beginning of the 20th century and in effect Manufrance published 4 catalogues for the public at large per year, and one or two deluxe editions and several other catalogues specially for gun shops. It is not unusual to find that a type of gun or model was proposed at the beginning of a year and not in the last trimester (or the inverse). This is simply linked to production objectives

I therefore set out to make a chronological model number identification chart which would be the closest to reality such that the collector or the amateur might have a base in order to detect fantastical markings, false markings or the refitting of replacement parts from various sourses.

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For the Robust: Can anyone interpret these umbers?






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Gene, those are model numbers and years mfg'd for the Robust. For example, I have a Robust 226 which appeared in 1931 and was last made in 1940. Gil

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Got it Gil...I had to translate the last paragraph on the IDEAL to understand. Still don't quite understand the 1 - 1 bis, etc... So no Serial numbers for Robusts - just model numbers?

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Robusts did have SN's. Or at least all the ones I owned did. They ranged from older ones to a couple later imports from several years after WWII.

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No known list of Robust serial numbers. It's all anecdotal through extrapolations and best guesses. I assume old catalogs were mined for the Robust list. MF was the king of French mail-order catalogs.

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"Bis" means two (or twice) in Latin, and "ter", three.
In this case my catalogs show that many grades could be ordered with an extra quality for 10FF more. There is a blurb early in the catalog, explaining those are just better than average guns giving better results for range and accuracy. Looks pretty arbitrary to me, and a marketing ploy to up-sell, no doubt.
I did not see a "ter" in my 1900 and 1910 catalogs but undoubtedly it would be a similar thing.
I have never seen an ideal marked "bis" or "ter" so there is probably no way to know now what the difference was...
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No SN list but I believe that the grade cutoff between xx and 3xx happened at the same time on the Robust than on the ideal (in the late 1920s IIRC).
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Doh, that was right there for everyone to see.
1931 is the cutoff.
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Add a little new to the topic. Several years ago I bought ROBUST 24. As I saw from the list, this model was made from 1925 to 1930. The gun is working, I go with him to hunt for a duck. May be anyone have more info about this model?


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That's a weird one.
I would say that the only French thing on this gun is the action.
The barrels, forend and stock are German.
Probably a WWII adventure...
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You think?
It seems to me on the barrel stamps Saint-tiennee ( S with a crown).

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No, the tubeset is purely German. Is the stamp of the MF paired w/ a wreath surmounted by "Saint" a stamp of Manu-France?


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Just in case anyone is interested, and I know Ted must have this, here are dates/ numbers of Regis Darne's patents. Checking patent numbers on a gun might confirm dates of SN's per the chart Gil previously posted.


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I'm going to post a Didier Drevet shotgun. SN 5275: dated 1887, a complete gun , chambered for 75mm. The gun has 30" Damascus barrels and was for sale for 750 Euros. - would that I been involved in Doubleguns when it came up for sale in 2012!
1) This adds to the graph of DD historical serial numbers.
2) It also gets closer to the theorized 1889 changeover date from mm to cm, when as WC pointed out France changed from the CGS system (centimeter, gram, second) to MKS system (meter, kilogram, second).

And what's with the brown case color?

FUSIL DE CHASSE percussion centrale, chiens extrieurs, deux coups, calibre 12-75 (18). Canons damas juxtaposs de 76,5 cm de Didier Drevet. Platines graves " L. Chalet Saint Etienne ". Crosse en noyer quadrill, marque sur une pice de laiton aux armes couronnes de Poncins. Dans un tui jambon en cuir " Count de Poncins ". Fabriqu en 1887.
N5275 - 1887. Poids: 3,370 Kg.
5 catgorie.
Adjug: 750
https://www.rouillac.com/fr/lot-233-79107-fusil_chasse_percussion_centrale_chiens?p=9




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And I'll post this 10 gauge Didier Drevet for history's sake. I believe the SN is 3675, and is dated 1879..very difficult to make out but I believe this is in the ball park. Chambers not mentioned.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/TRES-BEAUX-FUSIL-CAL-10-DAMAS-DIDIER-DREVET-item-4124257.html






TRES BELLE PIECE CAL.10
Beaux fusil du CANNONIER DIDIER DREVET sign sur les canons et poinons du cannonier DIDIER DREVET ST. ETIENNE et marquage mdaill en 1855
Canons DAMAS brun tabac, intrieur brillant mais marqus sans gravit vu l'paisseur de ceux-ci
Belles signatures sur les platines MONIN Bt. A GRENOBLE
Belles gravures avec cle sous pontet avec de belles volutes et beaux pomeau travaill
Plaque de couche fer et toutes les vis sont d'origine
Trs beaux bois tigr

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And a question for Ted: "Albert de Veron de La Combe, neveu d'Auguste Marze, assume la direction avec Claude*3 et Henri, les fils de Jean*2. La SIFARM (socit rsultant de la fusion des anciennes manufactures BERTHON Frres, Francisque DARNE, DIDIER-DREVET, GEREST et RONCHARD-CIZERON) est absorbe en 1963, en mme temps que la clbre Canonnerie Jean BREUIL. "

Did "SIFARM" (I know it was a marketing tool, not a manufacturing concern) keep records on the production of those members? if so, did Verney Caron inherit them in 1963?


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Argo, are we maybe confusing Drevet shotguns with shotguns with barrels made by Drevet? Who made the rest? Seems to me your first example is actually an L. Chalet shotgun with Drevet barrels. I have no idea how many complete guns were marked Drevet, but I owned a very nice sideplated boxlock 16ga (wish I'd kept it!) that was marked Drevet. If the gun doesn't wear a "maker's" name--which, as we know, is in fact often only the name of the gun shop/gunsmith/dealer who sold it--then it seems to me we might refer to it as a guild gun (or no name gun) with barrels by Drevet, Breuil, whatever. But if it does wear a maker's name, it seems to me that's what we should use--while of course adding the name of the barrel maker to provide additional information.

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Argo,
I haven't rifled through some of this stuff in ages, but, here is a tantalizing page just for you:



I will be honest, I have no idea what became of the records from SIFARM. I do know that there was a bit of a manufacturer's bloodbath in 1955, that caught Charlin, F. Darne, Peugeot, and perhaps a few others, with bankrupcy and associated sales of equipment and inventory to other manufacturers that year.

At the time I was involved in importation and in St. Etienne, I was not terribly interested in any other manufacturers. I approached Verney Carron ownership, and they seemed uninterested in exporting at that time. Richard Levi, at G. Granger, told me he would build for me a fine gun, but, he had all the work he could do right in St. Etienne. Demaas took me up, but, the gun were so European in looks and styling, with stepped cheekpieces, swivels on everything, and a dearth of American standard cartridge chamberings, I had zero interest from people in the states.

I can say, I'm glad I did it, and wouldn't have changed much about the experience. But, it was a business, and time to study minutia of the history of the manufacture of other companies simply wasn't there for me. I am a semi-serious bicyclist, as is Geoffroy Gournet, and I would have loved to delve into the history of bicycle companies in St. Etienne, but, I just couldn't.
I've said this before, but, anything I learned about other gunmaking concerns was incidental to trying to learn something about Darne guns, first, and various clones, second. I never read, wrote or spoke French beyond about a 6th grade level, and, that was actually enough to do what I was doing, at the time, but, didn't give me enough to do research, at a serious level. I like to say I was able to say "I'm hungry" and to swear at a waiter.

I am impressed with what you are able to put together with a computer and French language skills. Keep it up. I'll help when and where I can.


Best,
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Larry, you're right, Didier Drevett made barrels and also some entire guns. But both were numbered and dated and can help build the graph of logical dates of all DD SN's and by consequence, identify other markers such as the changeover from mm to cm and back again. (I assumed the "L.Chalet" name above was the seller because there is no other such name on the gun).

I think at some point I'm going to have to ask for help from Wife's cousins in Saint Chamond. I haven't done this for a variety of reasons but will when I get home. They must know where if any records of SIFARM and others are held in Saint Etienne.

I also need to join www.naturabuy.fr so I can ask some questions; I tried to do so in order to ask questions about the above 1879 gun - but the site won't allow it from where my computer is currently located.

Finally I need to contact Neltir on www.Passionlachasse.fr and ask him some serious questions...In the past wife wouldn't edit my French, but since we're physically separated for two months she might be feeling sorry for me or something. I'm thinking that If I put our list of Drevet SN's on Passionlachasse, the French will bomb in with dozens more serial numbers and Neltir might even know where are the records.

And Ted super-interesting chart. It's crossed my mind to try to find every patent issued to a Saint Etienne gun maker from 1880-1920 and publish them here to help date our guns.

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French shotguns are a lot like French women.....nice to look at fun to handle but not something you want to electro pencil your ss number on the flats....there is always somebody trying to handle her and you always have to wipe off the finger prints and stuff her back in the safe and spin the lock
....


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Does that mean that you have electro-penciled your SS# on your non-French wife flats? grin

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Sounds pretty bitter GN. Did you have a bad experience?

The mores for the French and Italians are a bit different. In France if a girl gets dressed up, shoes, purse...you have to say something..compliment what you see. To do otherwise would be an insult and negate the reason she got dressed up in the first place. In modern America saying something like, "those shoes look amazing on you," could get you hailed up on charges.

And for years wife would say something like, "I saw you looking at that woman in the street." I'd reply, "Ma cherie, why would I look at any woman when I'm with the most beautiful woman in the world." WRONG RESPONSE. The correct one was, "Well, actually you know she was looking at me and I had to be polite."

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Stamp Manufacture Fransaise:
https://postimg.org/image/k86ux91f9/][/url

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I've been reading a marvelous catalog for the 1891 universal exposition in Saint Etienne which has some 15 pages on the history of Stephanois gun making and the Status of the industry there in 1891. I'll translate it as time permits because it explains in some detail how Liege got a jump on Saint Etienne and France fell behind in gun innovation in the mid-19th century.
https://archive.org/details/lexpositiondesai00vach

But it had this picture of Didier-Drevet - since he dated his barrels and we've talked about him plenty here, thought it'd be good to post a photo:



The catalog is great for history. But it is a broadsheet in a way touting the rebirth of Saint Etienne arms industry. It is poetically artistic. it praises the engraving, barrels, new patents, etc. It does not go into the cartridges the guns are chambered for.

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This line further refined the date of the changeover from cm to mm in Saint-Etienne - to at least post 11 June 1912
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=578429&page=3

"We've established that the change back to mm to measure chambers from cm in Saint-Étienne occurred in 1912. We don't know exactly when. But:
-- it was definitely 1912 per dated Didier Drevet barrels
-- On the Darne number chart (Ted will caution about exceptions) it happened just around serial C600-700 (1912 per the chart):
. . . . . . .- C692, a 12 gauge with a chamber stamp "6.5".
. . . . . . .- C643, a 20 gauge with a chamber stamp "70".

Now if Berthon Fréres trademarked "Canons Gallia" on 11 Jun 1912...then you've likely dated your gun to within a couple of months - summer 1912. (And incidentally we've established that the changeover to mm was after 11 June 1912).

Raimey, you and I were thinking the same thing. I suppose it's possible he was using Canons Gallia before the trademark...but....heck...lets date the gun.

David, the common idea in gun scholarship is that it's darned difficult to date a Saint-Étienne gun - there are no French dating stamps. But by chance, dating your gun doesn't get much better than this."

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https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-ROBUST-N-2-item-7476679.html
Sur cette annonce, un Robust numéro de série 38710 avec des chambres en cm.
Je ne pense pas que cette arme a été fabriquée en 1912 pour être commercialisée à partir de 1913. Je pense que le chambrage en cm a été au delà de 1912.

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Translation: Per this advertisement, a Robust serial 38710 with chambers in cm. I don't think that that arm was made in 1912 because it was sold beginning in 1913. I think that the chambering in cm ended after 1912:
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-ROBUST-N-2-item-7476679.html
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Reply: Merci Fab comme d'habitude: Cette (un arm, une fusil?) Robust est vraiment interressant.

Cependant, notre conclusion que le changement de cm a mm a Saint-Étienne banc d'épreuve était en 1912 était basé sur cette fusil-de-chasse avec canon par Didier-Drevet avec une date 1912 - chambre en mm. Je dois me demander si les canons pour le Robust avait été deja a la banc d'épreuve en 1912 avant la creation du Robust?
(However, our conclusion that the change-over from cm to mm at the Saint-Etienne proof house was in 1912 was based on this shotgun with barrels by Didier Drevet with a 1912 date - chambered in mm. I must wonder whether the barrels of the Robust might have been to the proof house in 12912 before the release of the "Robust?")

--. 1912 13689? 18.4; 65 chambered in mm; Note the 1912 shift to mm.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Juxtapose-St-Etienne-cal-12-70-Didier-DREVET-item-3577295.html
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

-- Il y a un Berthon Freres Fusil de Chasse avec Canons Gallia...Dépôt de marque 11 Jun 1912...avec chambre en cm: "Berthon Frères, fabricants d'armes a St Etienne de 1900 à 1910. Successeurs de la Maison Martin Gerest. Dépôt de deux marques de fabrique le 26 avril 1912 pour platine "Perfecta"et une autre. Deux autres dépôts le 11 juin 1912 pour canons "Gallia" et carabine "La Lorraine". Devient en 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, puis Laspoussas & Driol en 1923. L'entreprise a existé jusqu'en 1950." Donc, la conclusion était le changement était après ce date. Mais bien sur, il est possible que il y avait des "dérapage."
(There was a Berthon Freres Shotgun with "Gallia" barrels...trademarked on 11 Jun 1912, with chambers in cm...."Berthon Freres gun makers in Saint-Etienne from 1900 to 1910: Successors to Martin-Gerest. Patent two trademarks on 26 April 12012 for the side-lock "Perfecgta" and another. Two other trademarks the 11 June 1912 for "Gallia" barrels and for the rifle "La Lorraine." It became in 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, then Laspoussas & Diol in 1923. The company existed until 1950." Thus, the conclusion was that the changeover was after that date (11 Jun 1912). But of course it's possible that there was some "slippage.")

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

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Originally Posted by Argo44
..... Patent two trademarks on 26 April 12012 for the side-lock "Perfecgta" and another.....


Argo:

Trying to follow along but what year here, 1912?

Serbus,

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Originally Posted by gunut
French shotguns are a lot like French women.....nice to look at fun to handle but not something you want to electro pencil your ss number on the flats....there is always somebody trying to handle her and you always have to wipe off the finger prints and stuff her back in the safe and spin the lock
....

Originally Posted by WildCattle
Does that mean that you have electro-penciled your SS# on your non-French wife flats? grin

The only place that looks good flat on a woman is her stomach, and a little "rivelling" there, in the abs, is certainly desirable.


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Raimey, Fab500 read our line and posted a "Robust" barrel (which came out in 1913) with chambers in cm. This challenged the thesis that the change to measuring chambers from cm back to mm in Saint Etienne was summer 1912 as postulated. He believed it was later possibly 1913+

I posted
-- the "Gallia" barrels which had chambers in cm..certainly made (or stamped) after the name was trademarked in 11 June 1912.
-- And a Didier Drevet barrel dated 1912 with chambers in mm.
Which indicates the change-over was indeed in 1912 sometime after June of that year.

But how to explain that "Robust" barrel? First..it looks odd...it has the French comma for a decimal point - all the other guns chambered in cm from 1889 - 1912 use a simple decimal point. So I don't take that as definitive. What I hope is that FAB500 will post some of this on some of the French sites and we'll get a flood of information.

Last edited by Argo44; 04/12/21 09:51 PM.

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I want to add these Posts to the "Dating French Shotguns" line so it's all in one spot - this has the potential to be a breakthrough:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=608762&page=5

#609002 01/06/22 10:04 PM
Merci Fab...et en particulier pour l'analyse de C643. ma conclusion que le changement de CM a MM survenu en 1912 était basé sur les canons daté de Didier Drevet. c'est le seul daté piece de rechange pour les fusils de Saint-Etienne que j'ai trouvé.

Mais voici la question. Nous essayons de dater un fait historique par l'analyse. Il y a sûrement des enregistrements à Saint Etienne sur le moment où cela s'est produit. La famille de ma femme nous vient de Saint Chamond. Je pourrais leur demander d'enquêter. Mais pour un spécialiste français des armes à feu... cela semble être un sujet de recherche important.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Hopefully this will get the French shotgun community energized:

"Thanks Fab..and in particular for the analysis of C643. My conclusion that the changeover from cm to mm took place in 1912 was based on dated barrels by Didier Drevet. These are the only dated Saint-Etienne gun parts that I've found

But here is the question. We have tried to date a historical fact by analysis. There is surely information in Saint-Etienne on the date when this occurred. My wife's family is from Saint Chamond. I could ask them to investigate. But for a specialist in French fire-arms..this would seem to be an important subject of research."

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
#609042 01/07/22 06:34 PM
Salut Argo,

Habitant loin de Saint-Etienne, il ne m'est pas possible de m'y rendre pour y faire des recherches.

Je viens d'envoyer un mail au Banc d'épreuve de Saint-Etienne pour leur demander s'ils pouvaient me communiquer des renseignements, et éventuellement m'indiquer où je pourrais les trouver. En espérant qu'ils seront disponibles pour m'apporter une réponse.

- - - - - - -
Living far from Saint-Etienne, it not possible for me to go there to do research.

I just sent a letter to the Saint-Etienne proof-house asking them if they could send me some information and eventually let me know where I could find it. Hoping they will be accomodating and send a response.



= = = = = = = = =
01/07/22 08:22 PM
Formidable! J'avais l'intention de visiter Saint-Etienne le prochain fois nous étions dans la region de Saint-Chamond...mais avec covid c'est difficile. J'espère que vous recevrez de bonnes nouvelles. Je n'ai pas eu beaucoup de succès avec les archives de Paris. La date de basculement 'est une date historique pour les fusils de chasse de Saint-Etienne et je suis sûr que Passionlachasse serait également intéressée.

- - - - - - -

Great! I intended to visit Saint-Etienne the next tie we were in the region of Saint-Chamond...but it's difficult with Covid. I hope that you receive some good news. I have not had much siuccess with the Paris Archives. The date of the changeover is a historical date for Saint-Etienne shotguns and I'm sure that Passionlachasse.Fr would also be interested.

Last edited by Argo44; 01/08/22 12:31 PM.

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Hello all, this is my first post. Not sure how to add pics on here yet. Has anyone ever seen a 32 Guage Saint Etienne "& cycles"? I do have one and it's definitely a 32 Guage.

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Shane, suggest you post this on a separate independent line. That'll give others the chance to see it and respond. To post pictures you have to use a free photo-hosting site such as jpgbox.com or imgur.com. It you want to send them to me via email, I'll post them on the separate line. See PM.


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Thank you Dave. I am going to Start another topic if that is what you are suggesting? Sent you some pictures via email if you would not mind uploading?;it is much appreciated.
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https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Didi...brication-1919-item-10692017.html#viewer

Salut Argo,

Canon Didier-Drevet de 1919, confirmé par le vendeur, avec un chambrage en cm.

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[Linked Image from i.goopics.net]

Canon d'un fusil Idéal avec un chambrage en cm.
D'après la liste de JC Mournetas, ce fusil daterait de 1924.

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Thanks Fab. But I have doubts about all three guns. One of them is clearly dated 1905 per the comments There is a lot of overstamping and one wonders if barrels were being reused or stockpiled barrels were being employed in later guns.

I have a pretty good idea on dating the Didier-Drevet barrel serial numbers. Could you please forward better pictures of the barrel flats and the stampings under the barrels including the DD serial numbers. (From experience I trust only photos - not claims by a gun seller) Thanks and thanks for doing this research. Gene.

---------------

Merci Fab. Mais j'ai des doutes sur les trois armes. L'un d'eux est clairement daté de 1905 selon les commentaires. Il y a beaucoup de surimpressions et on se demande si des canons étaient réutilisés ou si des canons stockés étaient utilisés dans des armes ultérieures.

J'ai une assez bonne idée sur la datation des numéros de série des canons Didier-Drevet. Pourriez-vous s'il vous plaît envoyer des meilleures photos des plats du canon et des estampages sous les canons, y compris les numéros de série DD. (Par expérience, je ne me fie qu'aux photos, pas aux affirmations faites par un marchand). Merci et merci pour cette recherche.

Et felicitations pour le 14 Juillet!!! 234 ans. Chez nous aujourd'hui:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 07/15/23 11:48 PM.

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Salut Argo,

Je comprends tes réticences, mais pour moi, il ne fait aucun doute que le date inscrite sur le canon est 1919. Le vendeur me l'a bien confirmé.
Pour le numéro de série, je pense à 14340 ou 14540 ou 14740.

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Didier-Drevet barrel SN 14340(?) would likely have been 1919 per the chart on the first page. I think that "Skeetz's" DD 14204 dated 1918 chambered in mm was one of the first Didier-Drevet guns produced after the war.

Didier-Drevet canon SN 14340 (?) aurait probablement été 1919 selon le tableau de la première page. Je pense que le DD 14204 de "Skeetz" daté de 1918 chambré en mm fut l'un des premiers canons Didier-Drevet produit après guerre.

There are definitely DD barrels chambered in both CM and MM dated "1912." So I think this SN 14340 gun must be a sort of "outlier." Perhaps the barrels were stockpiled during the war?

Il y a certainement des canons DD chambrés en CM et MM datés de "1912". Je pense donc que SN 14340 doit être une sorte de "valeur aberrante". Peut-être que les canons ont été stockés pendant la guerre ?

Here is the extant gun chart from p. 4 on this line with DD dated serial numbers. (we need to post this on Passion la Chasse and get more data input). (Nous devons publier ceci sur Passion la Chasse et obtenir plus de données)

1852 - DD begins to serial number and date his barrels
1855 - Gold Medal for Barrels - Exposition Universelle des produits de l'Agriculture, de l'Industrie et des Beaux-Arts de Paris
1878 - ...????;. . .65 . mm; 18.6; Gun Maker: Didier Fusil; Sn: ?? (damas underlever hammergun)
1879 - . 3675;. . ??? . . ??; 18.3; Gun maker; ??. . . . . .; Sn: ??
1885 - ..4922;. . ??? . mm; 17.0. Gun Maker: Pondevaux et Jussy; gun sn: ?? (from page 3)
1887 - ..5275;. . 75. .mm; 18.4. Gun Maker: L.Chalet; gun sn: ??
1889 shift from mm to cm in Saint Etienne per Wildcattle
1900 - ..8975;. .6.5 . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: Darne; gun sn??
1903 - ,,?????; . .6.5 . .cm; 18.4; Buford Armurier SN 5397
1904 - 11046; . .6.5 . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ?? gun sn:
1905 - 11604; . . ??? . . ??; 18.4; (unclear); . Gun maker: ?? gun sn: ??
1906 - 11985; . .7 . . .cm; 17.0; Gun maker: Gerest Berthon; gun sn
1906 - 12075; . .7 . . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1907?- 12537: . .7 . . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ?? (from next page)
1907 - 12613?;. .7 . . .cm; 18.4; Gun Maker: Geneaux; gun sn: ; (from 4th page)
1907 - ????????;. .7.5. .cm; 19.6; Gun Maker; ??; gun sn: ??
1908 - 12740; . .6.5. .cm; 17.0; Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1910 - 13184; . .6.5. .cm; 18.4: Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1912 - 13689? . . 65. .mm; 18.4: Note the 1912 shift to mm. (page 4)
1918 - 14204; . . 65. .mm; 18.4: Gun maker: ??; gun sn: 19488; (Skeetz's gun)
..................(possibly one of the very first commercial barrel sets made by DD after Nov 11, 1918).
1919 - 14340? . .6.5 . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker; ??; gun sn:
1921 - 15034; . . 65? . mm; 18.4;
1924 - 2?871; . . 75. .mm; 19.2 (10 gauge); gun number 1080 for Didier Drevet (SIFARM) gun labeled "Excelsior."

DD looks to have been making about
-- 1852-1885: serial numbers 0 - c5000; i.e. 200 or so a year? (actually probably the normal 250 once he got his reputation going with that 1855 gold medal).
-- 1885?-1914: Serial numbers c5000 - c14,000: 250-300 barrels a year from 1885 - 1914. Didier-Drevet in an interview said he did not produce more than 300 barrels a year to insure quality.
-- 1914-1918: Sn 14xxx-14204? Sports barrel production was probably zero from 14 Aug 1914- 11 Nov 1918 for obvious reasons.

I'll repost this from above"
-- Il y a un Berthon Freres Fusil de Chasse avec Canons Gallia...Dépôt de marque 11 Jun 1912...avec chambre en cm: "Berthon Frères, fabricants d'armes a St Etienne de 1900 à 1910. Successeurs de la Maison Martin Gerest. Dépôt de deux marques de fabrique le 26 avril 1912 pour platine "Perfecta"et une autre. Deux autres dépôts le 11 juin 1912 pour canons "Gallia" et carabine "La Lorraine". Devient en 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, puis Laspoussas & Driol en 1923. L'entreprise a existé jusqu'en 1950." Donc, la conclusion était le changement était après ce date. Mais bien sur, il est possible que il y avait des "dérapage."

(There was a Berthon Freres Shotgun with "Gallia" barrels...trademarked on 11 Jun 1912, with chambers in cm...."Berthon Freres gun makers in Saint-Etienne from 1900 to 1910: Successors to Martin-Gerest. Patent two trademarks on 26 April 12012 for the side-lock "Perfecgta" and another. Two other trademarks the 11 June 1912 for "Gallia" barrels and for the rifle "La Lorraine." It became in 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, then Laspoussas & Diol in 1923. The company existed until 1950." Thus, the conclusion was that the changeover was after that date (11 Jun 1912). But of course it's possible that there was some "slippage.")

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Here is the best I can do for resolution on 14340
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Now there is a legitimate question about the Didier-Drevet company, how it evolved, the splits and separations and who controlled the serial numbers; because there were barrels, then guns, then an amalgamation with Ronchard-Cizeron, etc. That has to reside in French gun literature. I'll try to research it unless FAB can save me the pleasure of research.


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And this is the problem with Naturabuy - marketing: Somehow the sellers can't bring themselves to post really good photos (the disease is universal: English auction houses post good photos but not of barrel and action flats; guntrader and gunstar are often awful).

Here is a Didier-Drevet barrel (part of the two forwarded by FAB500) which per the comments on the gun is dated to 1905. Not a chance to confirm the SN or the date from this crappy photo.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/DIDIER-DREVET-LUXE-PLUME-16-65-item-10456388.html

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Originally Posted by Argo44
Translation: Per this advertisement, a Robust serial 38710 with chambers in cm. I don't think that that arm was made in 1912 because it was sold beginning in 1913. I think that the chambering in cm ended after 1912:
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-ROBUST-N-2-item-7476679.html
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Reply: Merci Fab comme d'habitude: Cette (un arm, une fusil?) Robust est vraiment interressant.

Cependant, notre conclusion que le changement de cm a mm a Saint-Étienne banc d'épreuve était en 1912 était basé sur cette fusil-de-chasse avec canon par Didier-Drevet avec une date 1912 - chambre en mm. Je dois me demander si les canons pour le Robust avait été deja a la banc d'épreuve en 1912 avant la creation du Robust?
(However, our conclusion that the change-over from cm to mm at the Saint-Etienne proof house was in 1912 was based on this shotgun with barrels by Didier Drevet with a 1912 date - chambered in mm. I must wonder whether the barrels of the Robust might have been to the proof house in 12912 before the release of the "Robust?")

--. 1912 13689? 18.4; 65 chambered in mm; Note the 1912 shift to mm.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Juxtapose-St-Etienne-cal-12-70-Didier-DREVET-item-3577295.html
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

-- Il y a un Berthon Freres Fusil de Chasse avec Canons Gallia...Dépôt de marque 11 Jun 1912...avec chambre en cm: "Berthon Frères, fabricants d'armes a St Etienne de 1900 à 1910. Successeurs de la Maison Martin Gerest. Dépôt de deux marques de fabrique le 26 avril 1912 pour platine "Perfecta"et une autre. Deux autres dépôts le 11 juin 1912 pour canons "Gallia" et carabine "La Lorraine". Devient en 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, puis Laspoussas & Driol en 1923. L'entreprise a existé jusqu'en 1950." Donc, la conclusion était le changement était après ce date. Mais bien sur, il est possible que il y avait des "dérapage."
(There was a Berthon Freres Shotgun with "Gallia" barrels...trademarked on 11 Jun 1912, with chambers in cm...."Berthon Freres gun makers in Saint-Etienne from 1900 to 1910: Successors to Martin-Gerest. Patent two trademarks on 26 April 12012 for the side-lock "Perfecgta" and another. Two other trademarks the 11 June 1912 for "Gallia" barrels and for the rifle "La Lorraine." It became in 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, then Laspoussas & Diol in 1923. The company existed until 1950." Thus, the conclusion was that the changeover was after that date (11 Jun 1912). But of course it's possible that there was some "slippage.")

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Salut Argo,

[Linked Image from i.goopics.net]

Le 11 juin 1912, Berthon dépose la marque "Canons Gallia".
Le 12 février 1919, la marque "Canons Gallia marque déposée".

Si j'en crois mes sources, ce fusil est postérieur à 1918.

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Merci Fab. The problem with dating chambers of barrels stamped using cm in Saint Etienne is this; We are dating barrels, not guns. Barrels can sometimes be stockpiled for years before being mated to a gun. However, the barrels are what were stamped with cm or mm and may or may not be helpful in dating a gun. They are one more piece of evidence to consider.

Merci Fab. Le problème de la datation des cambrures des canons estampillés au cm à Saint Etienne est le suivant; Les canons sont datés, pas les fusils. Les canons peuvent parfois être stockés pendant des années avant d'être accouplés à une arme à feu. Cependant, les canons sont ceux qui ont été estampillés en cm ou en mm et peuvent ou non être utiles pour dater une arme à feu. Ils sont un élément de preuve de plus à considérer.

What cannot be denied though are two dated Didier-Drevet barrels, one from 1912 and one from 1918, both chambered in mm.

Ce qui est indéniable, ce sont deux canons Didier-Drevet datés, l'un de 1912 et l'autre de 1918, tous deux chambrés en mm.

1). 1912 13689? 18.4; 65 chambered in mm; Note the 1912 shift to mm.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Juxtapose-St-Etienne-cal-12-70-Didier-DREVET-item-3577295.html

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

2). 1918 Didier-Drevet - "Skeetz"'s gun:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels; 18.4; 65; 1918 - 14204

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 07/17/23 06:12 PM.

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I took a second look at the 1912 DD barrel. I had recorded the number and photo when it was posted on Naurabuy. That posting no longer exists. However, trying to blow it up and make it clearer, the date could conceivably be 1918 - SN 17982.

J'ai jeté un deuxième coup d'œil au canon 1912 DD. J'avais enregistré le numéro et la photo lors de sa publication sur Naurabuy. Cette annonce n'existe plus. Cependant, en essayant de le faire exploser et de le rendre plus clair, la date pourrait être 1918 - NS 17982.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Wildcattle noted that the change from the CGS system in Saint Etienne (centimeter, gram, second) to the MKS system (meter, kilogram, second) occurred in 1889. He believed the change back to the CGS occurred around WWI. Since I may have mis-read the 1912 . . .we'll re-open the question. A 1918 date would certainly make it easier to fit-in the Robust and the Canons Gallia.

Wildcattle a noté que le passage du système CGS à Saint-Étienne (centimètre, gramme, seconde) au système MKS (mètre, kilogramme, seconde) s'est produit en 1889. Il pensait que le retour au CGS s'était produit autour de la Première Guerre mondiale. Comme j'ai peut-être mal lu le 1912 . . .nous allons reouvrir la question. 1918 faciliterait certainement l'intégration du Robust et des Canons Gallia.

But for sure the change back to CGS had to have occurred by 1918. There is no mistaking the stamps on Skeetz's barrels.

Mais il est certain que le retour à CGS a dû avoir lieu en 1918. Il n'y a aucun doute sur les timbres sur les canons de Skeetz.

So now we need more Didier-Drevet dated barrels.

Last edited by Argo44; 07/19/23 09:06 PM.

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Mike, is that top picture your Didier Drevet 1918 SN 14204? If so, it's clearly 6.5 cm and my thesis about 1912 let alone 1918 being the changeover year is wrong (unless the above SN 17982 is in fact "14982" and the date is 1918).

I'm now not sure that SN 15034 (date not pictured) that I said was undated is actually 65mm. The chambered numbers are obscured but are suspiciously far apart and could be 6.5:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The earliest dated Didier-Drevet barrel chambered in mm (after the 30 year break) now possibly is 1918? - 17982?? above - and 17982 is not a 1918 SN; both numbers are not clear.

The next dated Didier-Drevet barrel is on this 1924 gun:
1). Didier Drevet barrel dated 1924; 1924 - 2?871 (or 1?871 ??); gun number 1886 for gun labeled "Excelsior." (per other ads for Excelsior's in the period which are chronologically serial numbered apparently). 10 gauge ( 19.2); chamber: 75mm (chambered in mm)(3"). modèle EXCELSIOR. (This is from the Naturabuy advertisement. The photos show a chamber of ".655" whatever that means).

So now we're up to at least 1918, possibly as high as 1924 for the changeover year. We need more DD dated barrels or more solid analysis, maybe an Ideal dated per JC Mournetas or some other gun with a date marker, to determine when the first mm chambered gun came back to Saint-Etienne. FAB, as usual, was right.

Nous en sommes donc maintenant à au moins 1918, peut-être jusqu'à 1924 pour l'année de basculement. Nous avons besoin de plus de canons datés DD ou d'analyses plus solides, peut-être un Idéal daté par JC Mournetas ou un autre fusil avec un marqueur de date chambre en mm, pour déterminer quand le premier canon à chambre mm est revenu à Saint-Etienne. FAB, comme d'habitude, avait raison.

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1918 . 14204

and

19488 is stamped on the barrel set
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by skeettx; 07/19/23 06:28 PM.

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Mike, 19488 is the SN of the gun, not the barrel. What I can't figure is the Helice-Gripp (supposedly Verney Carron) but with the top lever screw visible, indicating it's likely a Scott Spindle knock off. Now I'm out at sea trying to figure out the first mm chambered Saint-Etienne gun after WWI; I'm still holding onto 1918 but barely based on the fuzzy photos of 17982. What is the gun with the Canon Marsot?

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With the Canon Marsot, they are NO, NONE, ZIP external markings

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Originally Posted by Argo44
Mike, 19488 is the SN of the gun, not the barrel. What I can't figure is the Helice-Gripp (supposedly Verney Carron) but with the top lever screw visible, indicating it's likely a Scott Spindle knock off. Now I'm out at sea trying to figure out the first mm chambered Saint-Etienne gun after WWI; I'm still holding onto 1918 but barely based on the fuzzy photos of 17982. What is the gun with the Canon Marsot?


Clever devils at work. I was about to comment that the VC catalog (1922) lists "Helice Grip" as one of their registered trademarks. But now I see that the maker of the above gun simply added another P to Grip.

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Couple of Didier-Drevet barrels to add to the list. . .including a clearer picture of one of the guns forwarded by FAB500:


https://www.naturabuy.fr/DIDIER-DREVET-LUXE-PLUME-16-65-item-10456388.html
1908 - 12707; 6.5 cm; 18.4; Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ?? Decorative boxlock - two buttons under the forearm to eject one or two shells.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxt...evet-Grand-Prix-1900--item-9374215.html.
xxxx - xxxxx; 6.5 cm; 6.5 cm; 18.4, 70 cm barrels; highly engraved boxlock. Action or gun made bu "Boxberger"? (I will attempt to get date and SN from the seller)
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 07/20/23 01:06 PM.

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Salut Argo,

Ne t'embête pas trop avec ce fusil. Les canons ont été coupés après les chambres et ont été remplacés avec des nouveaux par frettage.

Last edited by fab500; 07/20/23 03:03 PM.
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Gene,
‘Coupla years past, I warned you this would be daunting. That mono bloc, mated to a set of barrels produced by someone else, is something that hadn’t even occurred to me, sleeving not being as acceptable on the continent as in Olde Blighty.

One more factor to factor in.

Good luck.

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Merci FAB, je ne me suis pas rendu compte.

Ted, I thought we had it nailed down but then took a look at the "1912" gun and found it questionable and Skeetz's 1918 turned out to chambered CM not mm.

It's easy solution though - we just take this gun out of the list. Still looking for the first reliable dated Didier Drevet barrel chambered in mm since I don't trust the photo of the "1912 or 1918" gun above.

Here is the latest chart of guns with dated Didier-Drevet barrels confirmed by photos:

1852 - DD begins to serial number and date his barrels
1855 - Gold Medal for Barrels - Exposition Universelle des produits de l'Agriculture, de l'Industrie et des Beaux-Arts de Paris

1875 - . 3020;. . XX . xxx; 16.8; Gun maker: Jean Fournel; no Sn. (Damas converted pin-fire hammer gun)
1878 - . XXXX;. . 65 . mm; 18.6; Gun maker: Didier Fusil; Sn: ?? (damas underlever hammergun)
1879 - . 3675;. . ??? . . ??; 18.3; Gun maker; ??. . . . . .; Sn: ??
1885 - ..4922;. . ??? . mm; 17.0. Gun maker: Pondevaux et Jussy; gun sn: ??
1887 - ..5275;. . 75. .mm; 18.4. Gun maker: L.Chalet; gun sn: ??
1889 - shift from mm to cm in Saint Etienne per Wildcattle
189X -. .6652;. .6.5. .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; Gun SN: ? SxS Steel.
1896 -. .7572;. .6.5. .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: Darne R grade; Gun SN: ? SxS Damascus.
1896 -. .7653;. .6.5. .cm; 15.6; Gun maker: Darne; Gun SN: 657 SxS Steel
1898 -. .8357;. .7 . . .cm; 16.8; Gun maker; ?? Gun SN: ?
1899 - ..8532;. .7 . . .cm; 19.6; Gun maker: Cizeron-Gabion; Gun SN:
1899 -. .8855;. .6.5. .cm; 17.0; Gun maker: Moulard; gun sn: ??
1900 - Grand Prix for Barrels - Paris Universelle
1900 - ..8975;. .6.5. .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: Darne; gun sn??
1901 - ..9451;. .6.5. .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: Darne V series; gun sn: 1508
1903 - ???????? . .6.5. .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: Buford Armurier SN 5397
1904 - 11412; . .6.5. .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ?? gun sn: ??
1905 - 11604; . . ??? . . ??; 18.4? Gun maker: ?? gun sn: ??
1906 - 11985; . .7 . . .cm; 17.0; Gun maker: Gerest Berthon; gun sn: ??
1906 - 12075; . .7 . . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1907 - 12455; . .6.5. .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1907 - 12537: . .7 . . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1907 - 12613? . .7 . . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: Geneaux; gun sn: ??
1907 - ???????? . .7.5. .cm; 19.6; Gun maker; ??; gun sn: ??
1908 - 12707;. . 6.5. .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ?? Decorative boxlock
1908 - 12740; . .6.5. .cm; 17.0; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1910 - 13184; . .6.5. .cm; 18.4: Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1918?- 13986? . . 65. .mm; 18.4: ??????? 1st mm chamber??
1918 - 14204; . .6.5. .cm; 18.4: Gun maker: ?? gun sn: 19488; (Skeetz's gun)
1919 - 14340; . .6.5. .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ?? gun sn: ?? La bascule jaspée avec son axe d'origine porte la signature en lettres cursives « Didier Fusil 1919.09.23 » . Une inscription en majuscules vient la compléter sur la table : « MARQUES DÉPOSÉES D.D-1919-23 ».
1919 - 14341; . .6.5. .cm; 18.4; Gun maker; ?? gun sn: ??
1921 - 15034; . .6.5? .cm; 18.4; Photo is unclear but 6.5 is the best guess
1924 - shift from cm to mm in Saint Etienne?
1924 - 16571?;. . 75. .mm; 19.6; Gun maker: Didier Drevet (SIFARM) "Excelsior." gun sn: 1080

Last edited by Argo44; 08/10/24 05:58 PM.

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Originally Posted by Argo44
1). Didier Drevet barrel dated 1924; 1924 - 2?871 (or 1?871 ??); gun number 1080 for gun labeled "Excelsior." (per other ads for Excelsior's in the period which are chronologically serial numbered apparently). 10 gauge ( 19.2); chamber: 75mm (chambered in mm)(3"). mod�le EXCELSIOR .
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-Artisanal-Francais-occasion-Calibre-10-item-2824879.html


[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Excelsior is a well-known brand created by DD and SIFARM about 1924. Here is a gushing publicity for it. It's funny - if you read the ad on naturabuy.fr above - the guy doesn't know what is Excelsior, has not looked at his gun and claims it was possibly exhibited in Paris in 1900 - odd for a guy asking 2800 Euros for the arm)(research shows he bought it in 2015 at another auction). I'm starting to think some gun dealers are like carpet merchants.

http://fcm25.canalblog.com/archives/2015/05/22/32098981.html

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Ce fusil est sans doute l'un des derniers fabriqués par les établissements Didier-Drevet.
En 1924, cette entreprise cesse activité.
En 1934, Laspoussas-Driol rachète les marques Didier-Drevet, Didier fusil et Didier étui.

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https://www.naturabuy.fr/DIDIER-FUSIL-modele-Excelsior-canons-plume-EUREKA--item-8947087.html

Fusil fabriqué dans la période Laspoussas-Driol. L'arme est signée Berthon frères. Les canons sont de Jean Breuil.

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FAB, I become more and more cynical about the gun trade, which starts to resemble the carpet merchants I used to buy from 50 years ago in Pakistan.

Je deviens de plus en plus cynique à propos du commerce des armes à feu, qui commence à ressembler aux marchands de tapis que j'achetais il y a 50 ans au Pakistan.

This gun was advertised as having 75mm chambers. However, after blowing up the only photograph, trying to enhance it, I cannot identify the chamber markings and therefore don't trust it.

Ce fusil était annoncé comme ayant des chambres de 75 mm. Cependant, après avoir agrandi la seule photographie, en essayant de l'améliorer, je ne peux pas identifier les marques de la chambre et donc je ne lui fais pas confiance.

1). Didier Drevet barrel dated 1924; 1924 - 16571??; gun number 1080 for gun labeled "Excelsior." (per other ads for Excelsior's in the period which are chronologically serial numbered apparently). 10 gauge ( 19.2); chamber: 75mm (chambered in mm)(3"). mod�le EXCELSIOR .
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-Artisanal-Francais-occasion-Calibre-10-item-2824879.html

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Trying to figure out the Didier Drevet barrel SN of this barrel is also proving quite difficult. I've finally settled on "16571"?? This would be close to the Didier-Drevet average of 300-400 barrels made per year factoring in the other guns on the graph. Any higher SN would mean the company ramped up production in these post WWI years.

Last edited by Argo44; 07/22/23 11:27 PM.

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Now I'm looking for dated Didier-Drevet barrels from 1918 - 1924. But still, this 1901 Darne fitted with DD barrels 1901 - 9451, Darne gun SN "1508", is interesting. Normally without a picture of the barrels and flats I wouldn't post the gun but the description has integrity.

https://www.proxibid.com/Guns-Milit...G-BREECH-SHOTGUN/lotInformation/55657580

DARNE V SERIES 12 GA SBS SLIDING BREECH SHOTGUN | Darne V Series 12 gauge side-by-side sliding breech shotgun. 2.5" chamber. 27.5" barrels. 13" & 13.75" LOP. Matching serial numbers throughout. Bottom of barrel flat reads: "Non Pour La Ball *choke* Eureka," St. Etienne," "Canons Plume," 18.4" indicating 12 GA bore and 6.5 indicating 2 1/2" chamber. Fusil Pour Poudre Pyroxylle," Medaille 1855," Didier Drevet," Cannonnien a St Etienne," "Modele Depose," "Canons De Sjrfte Garanti Double Epreuve," "1901.9451," and crown over "PS" proof mark. Highly decorative floral engraving on receiver, barrel shank, trigger guard and T lever. | Provenance: | Search: “Buie” within this auction catalog to filter & view all of the Col. Walter Buie lots included in this auction. | WWII War Trophy Collection & Military Archive of Col. Walter Buie | Only recently discovered, the extensive WWII War Trophy Firearm & Militaria Collection of Colonel Walter Buie has been stored away within the original boxes and trunks in which the items were shipped back by Buie from his WWII service in both the European and Pacific Theaters. | The Buie collection is comprised of hundreds of pieces, acquired by Buie while stationed in Germany and Japan. The war trophies were then packed into trunks and wooden crates for shipment back to the States. When found, the items were still contained within the original trunks and crates. Opening each was an exciting discovery, akin to opening a time capsule where one did now know what historical artifacts await. | Centurion Auctions, auctioneers & appraisers specializing in wartime collectibles and firearms, have been commissioned to bring the Buie collection to market. | The firearms are included in the August 2020 Firearm Auction and consist of approximately 50 pieces, many of which are quite scarce. | The military collectibles are included in the September 2020 Wartime Collectible Auction and include hundreds of items. Also included in the militaria session are personal items related to Buie and his military career. | Colonel Walter Daniel Buie (1900-1986) was born in Nashville, Georgia, and graduated from the United States Military Academy West Point in 1920. He served in various military positions in the United States and abroad for the next 24 years, and in 1941 was assigned as an instructor at Command and General Staff School at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. In 1942 he was promoted to colonel. He became chief of staff for the 97th Infantry Division at Fort Leavenworth in 1943, and soon after was reassigned as chief of staff to the newly-activated XXIII Corps at Camp Bowie, Texas. On September 5, 1944, Buie was named regiment commanding officer of the 272d Infantry Regiment (“Battle Axe Regiment”) of the 69th Infantry Division. Shortly after, the 272d Infantry was sent overseas, first to England and then to France, Belgium and Germany. In March 1945, the 272d Infantry occupied the front line position of the Siegfried Line, pushing back the German Army, before advancing to the Rhine River. The 272d continued its path across Germany, capturing Fortress Ehrenbreitstein and clearing over 35 towns along the way, including Leipzig. The 272d Infantry eventually made contact with the Russian Army in Berlin in late April, after the Russian Army had already taken the city. The war in Europe ended with V-E Day a few days later. Colonel Buie was immediately transferred to the Pacific Theater, where he served as chief of staff for the 25th Infantry Division and was present for V-J Day. After the war ended, Buie stayed in occupied Japan at the headquarters of General Douglas MacArthur’s Far Eastern Command. He returned home to the United States and retired from the military in 1954. He held various government positions after retirement, including with the Federal Civil Defense Administration and the Office of Emergency Preparedness. Buie died in 1986. | Caliber / Gauge: 12 GA | Barrel Length: 27.5" | Serial Number: 1508 | | Condition: Very good. Very good bores. Shows some wear, age and loss to finish. Some minor oxidation marks on barrel. Functions properly. | Est. $700-1000

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 07/22/23 11:22 PM.

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As I continue to struggle with the cm to mm changeover in Saint-Etienne, this gun keeps popping up:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

It was originally interpreted as 1912 - 13689 and was the original marker for cm-mm changeover. FAB500 kept turning up exceptions and a second look at the barrels, blowing them up, etc., raised questions about the date and the DD serial number.

I now think the date SN could be 1918 - 13986... chambered in mm, which would mark the beginning of a new dating era. (or possibly 1919 - 14986?)

Comparing the fuzzy photos with similar fuzzy photo from 1919 - 14341 seem to support this. The "7" likely is a "3." Mysteries and contradictions and bad photography confound expectations. But whatever, 1919 or 1918 this gun is still chambered in mm is clearly the first extent gun found after WWI chambered in mm.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

There is a good sample on p.16 above of DD barrels which can give a good idea of how many he was producing. What we really need now are dated barrels from 1885-1895; and from 1910 - 1924.

Last edited by Argo44; 09/18/23 09:26 PM.

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Another Didier-Drevet Canon-Plume barrel comes to light. 1919 - 14340; 6.5.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Didi...-6kg-fabrication-1919-item-10692017.html
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

From the advertisement on Naturabuy, believe this is a Didier Fusil make. I'll post the ad because in spite of the hype (it's a plain Jane gun but advertised as a historical gem), it has some interesting information that I've yet to confirm - the important point in the last paragraph:

Dans le monde des armes de luxe, on a tendance à se dire que tout ce qui est bien est anglais. Or au début du XXème siècle cette affirmation mettait en rogne Etienne Mimard de la Manufacture de Saint Etienne et Didier Drevet (1831-1940, mort à 109ans !), plus grand maître armurier et canonnier de tous les temps.

Décoré de la médaille d'or de 1855 il avait à à peine 24ans fait son entrée en grandes pompes dans l'Histoire, tel un Napoléon Bonaparte, qui au même âge devenait général.

De ses exploits, nous pourrions tenir un roman, nous nous contenterons d'aborder sa plus grande gloire : l'invention du canon plume.

Quel joli nom, pour une idée si bien exécutée. On savait relier des canons ensemble depuis Louis XIV et les assembler par soudure depuis plus de 100ans quand Maître Jean Pierre Didier présenta à l'exposition de 1900 cette prouesse, alors quasi septuagénaire. Le but ultime motivant cet exploit était de créer le fusil le plus léger du monde et ainsi une arme qui monterait avec le plus d'aisance à l'épaule afin de satisfaire le plus exigeant des sportmens. Cette compétition éfreinée motivait d'arache pied tous les plus grands noms de l'arquebuserie française de la fin du siècle dernier.

Les canons n'étaient alors plus reliés qu'à la bouche et à la culasse par des entretoises. Une simple tôle, évitait avec élégance que l'on ne remarque leur séparation. Des canons plume se remarquent en un instant dès que vous posez votre regard par delà les pistons.

Autre secret de leur légèreté, leur épaisseur qui variait en fonction des nécessités de chaque partie des canons. Cette résistance savamment distillée se payait même le luxe de proposer des armes à double voir triple épreuve, ce à quoi des armes plusieurs centaines de grammes plus lourdes ne se risquaient pas.

Les ateliers de Jean-Pierre Didier-Drevet sortirent à l'aube des années 1920, une ligne appelée « Didier Fusil ». Produisant moins de 500 armes par an, elle ne s'adressait qu'aux plus brillants disciples du roi Nemrod et pouvait concurrencer les fournisseurs de la plus part des têtes encore couronnées de l'époque.

Chaque détail est pensé en ce très beau fusil, à la décoration sobre et pourtant si raffinée.

Sa crosse à la française, à la pente harmonieuse au possible est une prouesse de crossier à elle seule. Terminée par de fins quadrillages, elle est dépourvue d'origine de plaque de couche. Ce genre d'arme était conçu pour des chasseurs les traitant avec soin, ne les posant jamais au sol et les entreposant dans de superbes jambons de cuir, qui à eux seuls coûteraient un smic, s'ils étaient fabriqués neufs...

Le bois, d'un très beau noyer, au grain serré porte quelques vestiges du temps, notamment un enfoncement sur son côté gauche ainsi qu'une éraflure sur son rebord. Une ancienne fissure stabilisée se perçoit un peu plus haut. Elle ne pose en aucun cas de problème de solidité, et il faut la chercher pour la remarquer. Aucune autre n'est à signaler nulle part sur le reste de l'arme.

Le soin dans la réalisation de ce fusil se retrouve jusque dans son passant de bretelle qui dispose d'un arrêtoir afin de ne pas venir heurter le bois.

De très beaux quadrillages sur-fins, d'origine, jamais ravivés viennent habiller l'avant de la crosse ainsi que la longue queue de pontet encore jaspée. La première détente est articulée (pour une raison qui m'est inconnue) et est parfaitement ajustée de même que sa cadette. Leur départ est particulièrement net et franc, sans pareil avec un fusil industriel.

Longueur par rapport au centre de la crosse de 36cm exactement.

De jolies vis décorées de fleurs et sans traces de démontage parsèment l'ensemble.

La bascule jaspée avec son axe d'origine porte la signature en lettres cursives « Didier Fusil 1919.09.23 » . Une inscription en majuscules vient la compléter sur la table : « MARQUES DÉPOSÉES D.D-1919-23 ».

Last edited by Argo44; 09/18/23 09:35 PM.

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So did Didier really attain 109 years??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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Raimey I don't really know. I suppose if you drink red wine, eat pâté, have sex regularly, have a strong community around you, socialize, attend church, speak French, drink coffee (I don't think Gitane cigarettes came out until 1910) and go shooting often (or play golf). . .you can live to 109. It's Joie de vivre. Leave this to FAB to authenticate.

Last edited by Argo44; 09/18/23 11:33 PM.

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Gene,
Notice the font of the letters of the word “DARNE” on the opening lever? That is an old gun.

Wish I would have been at that auction with $700-1K that day. Neat old gun.

Best,
Ted

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Ted, can't see it. where is it? There is a second very old Didier-Drevet' pre Canon-plume and before the 1900 Paris gold medal - can't make out the dates or the SN on naturabuy...original 6.5 chambers proofed for PS.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Juxtapose-becassier-item-9784271.html

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Oh wait. . .that 1901 DD barreled Darne, SN 1508 from the previous page. ?? That is a nice gun!!! lots of drop.
and you should have gotten that. Sorry I didn't call it to your attention at the time.

Last edited by Argo44; 09/18/23 10:45 PM.

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No worries-pretty rare for me to be standing around with a grand in my pocket.

Best,
Ted

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this seems as good a place as any to insert a link to wood and other parts for a 16ga MAC - that i stumbled upon this morning on ebay. see an occasional post here re: those guns, and the ad provides good photos of what appears to be a nice set of wood that someone might appreciate....other parts from the same gun are listed by the seller, and can be viewed through the link. i have no connection with the seller.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145269729174

best regards,
tom


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I'll give a shout out to French quality. Here is a Saint-Etienne SxS 12 bore scroll back filed boxlock, side clips, tasteful engraving and excellent wood, with Didier-Drevet post 1900 plume barrels (unfortunately sleeved so the SN and date are not known). (Note the Scott Spindle rather than a copy of the Verney Carron "Helice Grip":
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxt...revet-Grand-Prix-1900--item-9374215.html

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 09/20/23 11:55 AM.

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[Linked Image from i.goopics.net]

Salut Argo,
Je ne connais pas la date du décès de Jean-Pierre Didier.
Par contre son fils Jean Didier, qui au début du XXè siècle réunit les 2 canonneries Didier-Drevet et Ronchard-Cizeron qui cesseront leurs activités en 1924, est lui décédé en 1940.

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Good afternoon. Need help identifying the manufacturer of the gun. The barrels have Saint-Etienne markings and Suhl markings as well.
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZLZo81SFdpyeAeJ26[/img]
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/e3MiU7N7uWLETxRe7[/img]
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/2Eu5dzbzGNeGzwDJ7[/img]
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/yWeQ772btKLkGNxi6[/img]
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/oTaeq1apQqjBv7mh9[/img]

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general observations: the gun appears to be a normal basic grade french gun - built with the v-c type helice fastening system....the lever markings do not misspell the word helice (as many such examples do - might be a later production). T powder, 65mm chambers - so built after 1912-1920 (?), acier martele - i have seen before, but don't recall any details. the oval D-R mark on the water table is not familiar to me, nor are the very stylish circled initials on the barrel flats - which i read to be a stylized A R. two additional marks are "suhl"....over/under stamped, at the PT on the left chamber, and the word "special" on the right chamber - but no markings that would correspond to having been through proofing there.

another french gun with many questions, and an unknown number of answers....

best regards,
tom


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I'll add a couple of observations to Tom's commentary above:

-- "Acier Martele Extra" on the action = Extra hammered steel (on the action). All the gun makers and barrel makers seemed to have their favorite descriptions of steel. I haven't seen this one before but so far can't associate it with any particular gun maker.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

-- "Acier Spécial" on the barrel flats = Special steel; Never seen the motif and it does not look French.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

-- "Acier JOMPc" on the barrels = who knows (possibly JOMPxxx & Cie?) but this is a world record for three different steels advertised on the gun. And this gun lacks the usual lower oval of advertising ("Non pour Balle" or something else).
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

"prouvé poudre pyroxyleé" - presumably "proofed for smokeless powder" but I believe the French term is actually "poinçons d'épreuve" - put perhaps without the poinçons (stamps) - "prouvé" (past tense of prouvér - to prove) can be used (though I have never seen this stamp on a Saint-Étienne gun).
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

-- "Choke Rectifie Fanget & Cie"?): Chokes bored by Fanget - well-known barrel maker in Saint-Étienne. See below post from a different gun with that stamping:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

-- "Helice Depose der Iriele" or "Helice Iriele per Depose?": The word "Helice" was never actually patented by Verney Carron so many firms used the word. Dépose of course means "registered." "DER IRIELE" is beyond my ken. Why a German preposition on a French gun; "Iriele " isn't a word (might it be an abbreviation of some sort?).
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

-- The gun's serial number is 679. This maker did not produce a lot of guns apparently.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

-- Traditional French stock with half pistol grip and sling rings.

There is a certain crudeness about the engravings and stampings.

Ron - look at the bottom plate of the gun just in front of the trigger guard. Many French guns had the retailer's name stamped there.

Last edited by Argo44; 09/28/23 12:04 PM.

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I'm really grateful to you. Thanks for your help, it's very nice. I will search further.

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Salut,

Pour le marquage sur la clef, je pense à HELICE RIFLE DEPOSE DR.

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Merci Fab: Ça a du sens; je peux le voir maintenant. mais que signifie DR ?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 09/30/23 12:09 PM.

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DR sont les initiales du fabricant de l'arme.
Par contre, je n'ai aucune information sur celui-ci.

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https://www.naturabuy.fr/UNIQUE-DAR...IRE-CAL-20-1896-juxta-item-10949239.html
Un Darne monté avec des canons Didier Drevet de 1896.
L'unité de chambrage est en mm.

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Merci Fab. The gun was numbered and stamped after two earlier DD SN'd guns were chambered in cm confirmed by photos. Is it possible the Darne SN is "657?" For the record I'll post the ad and some photos so they won't disappear when the gun is sold.

AVIS AUX COLLECTIONNEURS: très rare, et vraiment unique, venez visiter cette piece de collection,
il s agit d un DARNE/DIDIER DREVET, cette association a eu lieu d après les archives en 1896 ( canon frappè 1896)

il est aussi en poudre noire (POINCON PS) et chambrè en 65mms.

le canon est marquè des medailles de monsieur et madame didier et drevet canonier stephanois il est ecrit sur le canon medaille d or 1855, le canon a donc ètè fabriquè en 1896 par didier drevet, avant que monsieur darne ne depose d autres brevets et fabrique ses propres canons.

Vous remarquerez que le cran de suretè ce trouve a l arriere et qu il y a ecrit FEU au dessus du cran.
La boiserie est en une seule piece , on est donc la sur une piece fabriquèe avant 1900 a poudre noire, et donc piece exceptionelle en CATEGORIE D.

passons aux mensurations de cette piece de musèe (totalement fonctionelle et en très bel etat voir photos); longueur totale 112 cms; longueur canon 72 cms; distance de la premiere gachette a l arriere de la crosse 36,5 cms

il y a eu une petite reparation au niveau du talon de la crosse, que l on devine sur les photos au niveau de la plaque de couche qui est en corne, l embout de la longuesse est aussi en corne,

une belle piece a acquerir pour les collectionneurs en recherche de pieces d execption

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 10/01/23 03:08 PM.

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I think the "65" on DD 1886 - 7653 is actually a "6.5" without the decimal. The 6 and the 5 look suspiciously far apart. This has happened in other guns especially the 1899 - 8855. Compare it to the "65" on 1919 gun.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 10/02/23 04:08 PM.

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Originally Posted by fab500
[Linked Image from i.goopics.net]

Salut Argo,
Je ne connais pas la date du décès de Jean-Pierre Didier.
Par contre son fils Jean Didier, qui au début du XXè siècle réunit les 2 canonneries Didier-Drevet et Ronchard-Cizeron qui cesseront leurs activités en 1924, est lui décédé en 1940.


Salut,
Jean-Pierre Didier 1831-1914

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