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Joined: Feb 2013
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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Does anyone know how prolific Bentley & Playfair of Birmingham was in producing guns? Were they on a similar scale as W & C Scott?

The reason I am interested in Bentley & Playfair is because my shotgun which is a Clabrough & Johnstone (circa 1925) was apparently made at the same premises according to Larry Shelton in his book, J.P. Clabrough Birmingham Gunmaker. In 1914, Douglas V. Johnstone who had purchased the JP Clabrough company in 1892, amalgamated with Hollis, Bentley & Playfair and from that date shared the same premises and workmen in Birmingham.

In correspondence with Larry, I had told him that my Clabrough & Johnstone shotgun had a very high serial # 102xxx; to which he was astonished because throughout his years of tabulation, he said he had never found a serial number over 20,000. He thought my serial number may have come from the retailer possibly the Hudson Bay Company in Canada. Well a little over a year ago Larry Shelton contacted me again and stated that he had found another Clabrough & Johnstone shotgun for sale in England with a serial # 102,258, made circa 1925/1930. So this indicated to me that my serial # wasnt likely unique to the Hudson Bay Company.

My theory is that possibly when Clabrough & Johnstone amalgamated their works with Hollis, Bentley & Playfair in 1914, that they started using their serial numbers also. The problem being I cant find a list of serial numbers relating to Bentley & Playfair. They were established early in 1840 about the same time as W & C Scott, and to my understanding made alot of guns. In 1914, W & C Scott had serial #s into the 91,000s, and by 1924 they were using serial #s into the 105,000s.

Anyone have knowledge about Bentley & Playfair's production?

Thanks.

Tim

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I cannot figure out the Hollis Bentley and Playfair numbering systems. I had two of their very highly engraved sidelocks that were nearly identical. One was numbered in 4 digits and the other in the 88,000 range. The company did have a London address, so maybe during that relatively short period the London serial numbers were in a separate group.

Your thought about Bentley and Playfair, later in ca. 1911 with Hollis, seems correct to me. Bentley and Playfair made guns 60 years before the amalgamation for many makers as well as a few with their own brand. Their catalog describes themselves as makers to the trade and gives prices for many gun mechanical and decoration styles, in various states of finish, to be sold , and/or finished up, by others.

1 member likes this: Tim Cartmell
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Hi Daryl,

Thanks for the info. An 88,000 range serial # in my mind should indicate a high number of guns produced. Do you know What year your 88,000 series gun was produced?

Thanks.

Tim

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Tim, the gun serialed in the 3000 range was marked on the top rib, Hollis Bentley & Playfair, London. The serial no. was on the trigger guard, barrel underside and receiver. See below.



The gun in the 88,000 range was serial no. marked on the under rib only. The top rib was marked Hollis Bentley & Playfair, Birmingham and London, all in gold. See below.



My thought was that both guns were made between 1911 and the war. I also "guessed" that the high number was a Birmingham number and the 3000 range number may have been a London number.

Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 05/31/15 01:22 PM.
1 member likes this: Tim Cartmell
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Daryl, very nice engraving on those 2 sidelocks!

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Does the gun have the 1904 proof marks or date marks?

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Appearance of numbers of guns in the current resale market would indicate that, assuming similar survival rates, W&S made a lot more than B&P. Note that W&S also sold a lot of guns to the trade.

DDA

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Do we know who made all the Isaac Hollis & Sons branded guns.
Being part of the conglomerate of Hollis Bentley & Playfair, was it them who made all the I Hollis & Sons guns.
If so, there is a fair number there.
I have 2 Hollis guns, one in the mid nineteen teen's manufacture, numbered 95,000 & one from early thirties numbered 111,000.
O.M

Last edited by moses; 08/05/17 09:52 PM.
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I think that Bentley and Playfair made mostly guns for the trade. A look at the 1911 catalog will show their advertising to other gunsmiths, with good illustrations of details you probably have seen on many guns with the names of others on them. They offered guns in various states of finish. I have one currently for sale marked Charles Playfair, Aberdeen. I have seen or owned Bentley and Playfair manufactured guns by Braddell of Belfast, Monk, and many others. Again , the details in the catalog of 1911 will show up on guns of many provincial makers that one may have seen.

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They were very much into making military weapons of all types prior to branching out into sporting guns after military rifles became more mass produced by machinery.

Tim, English guns have some odd serial numberings often starting with a high number that contains some sort of code as to year etc. Very few started at number 1 and worked through. Makes life difficult when trying to sort out things. Lagopus.....

1 member likes this: Tim Cartmell
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