|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
387
guests, and
6
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,443
Posts544,800
Members14,405
| |
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 718 Likes: 104
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 718 Likes: 104 |
There is a lot of wisdom on this thread. I think most of us on this forum are of a like mind in respect of appreciation and admiration of a man's best effort put forth in the production of a firearm. Those of us who own them choose to do so not to gloat and not because we shoot them better than a lesser effort of craftsmanship, but for the satisfaction they bring in handling and operation. Our families and friends have no appreciation for the 700+ hours of hand effort that was/is required to produce a best gun and we are forced to the Internet to find like minded individuals who know and share our affliction. We are fortunate to have a forum such as this and the freedom to exchange ideas that it affords.
Owen
|
|
1 member likes this:
CJF |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
My latest V. Bernadelli S. Uberto I imported by Charles Daly has only whetted my appetite for a true "best gun".
What I want, is a sound, attractive, used "best gun" , that is:
1. A sidelock
Nothing fundamentally wrong with this wish. Just be aware that there is a wide range in quality of sidelocks. You will need to educate yourself in judging the gun as an individual. You must learn to iden tify the gun's maker and the value the market attributes to that fact; Brand Value. You must learn to identify the gun's Original Quality grade. You must learn to judge the gun's Current Condition level. These three factors will allow you to peg the gun's current value reasonably closely.
2. Made to very high, hand made standards
That is what "best work guns" are.
3. Is a light game gun of approximately six and a half pounds, or slightly more.
The average Brit game gun weighs 6 1/2#, balances 4 1/2" in front of the front trigger, has an unmounted swing effort of 1.45, and a mounted swing effort of 6.4. These characteristics may or may not suit you as an individual. So, you may or may not want a Brit game gun.
4. Made in the pattern of the best English sidelock "best guns" from Purdey, Holland and Holland, or Boss.
"Best work gun" is a standard of quality of design, material, and workmanship. There is room for varying styles shaping and embellishment. Keep in mind that any Brit master gunmaker was fully capable of getting out a best gun based on his own work, his in-workers, and contracted out-workers. The trick was to secure commissions for such work.
5. Cosmetic flaws are acceptable, so long as they don't detract from the overall experience of owning a true "best gun".
You are into Current Condition with this issue. Cosmetic issues are easier to deal with than are mechanical issues. I'd suggest that you make very sure that your first "best work" gun is sound mechanically
What's the lowest price of entry into the realm of a true "best gun"?
$230 will buy you a little known continental maker, retailer, or unmarked "guild" best work gun in wall-hanger current condition. OK, I know that is not what you meant. So, BV1-OQ1-CC4 = $16,000; BV1 = Boss, H&H, Purdey, and Woodward. "Same as" gun but BV2 maker = $12,000. BV3-OQ1-CC4 = $8,000, BV4-OQ1-CC4 = $4,000, and BV5-OQ1-CC4 = $2,000. All the same level of quality and condition.
To further the discussion, what are the price and quality differences of examples of a good, sound, used sidelock "best gun" from the U.K., Spain, and Italy, or anyplace else in the world a true "best gun" would come from?
See BV3, BV4, and BV5.
Any opinions of what I should look for, would be much appreciated.
Be happy with the nice, sound gun you have until you have the means to buy what you want in sound mechanical condition and the knowledge to know. Read a bunch of books on the Brit gun trade. Start with Dig Hadoke's "Vintage Guns" and "Boxlocks" books. Study auction catalogs and results. Understand that the chances of missing out on a bargain are far lower (unlikely) than the chances of buying a money pit (very likely).
Drop me and e-mail address if you want the full charts on values.
Post back with any questions.
DDA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,375 Likes: 105
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,375 Likes: 105 |
If you want to get as close to best and spend the least you may want to look at one of the little know or no name Belgian sidelocks. The quality of some of these guns is excellent and they are undervalued. Buy the gun and not the name! I'd second that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 969 Likes: 38
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 969 Likes: 38 |
Bruce Owen, the then Purdey production manager, wrote an article in Shooting Sportman back in 2002 if memory serves. It is an eye opener, more so than any other piece of writing on the non definiton of best. To recap his statements:
CNC machinery is widely used by top makers to decrease expensive hand work. Makers who do not own CNC farm out work to those who do to survive, or else disappear.
CNC machines impose the use of better steels due to the increased force they apply to the work (so now we should call modern best guns bester due to improved steels?)
CNC machinery yields higher accuracy because the work is fixed in a vise once
Modern machines decrease costs by allowing lower inventories.
He concludes by stating that modern best guns are better due to modern machines and presumably less hand work. It is interesting to ponder the implications of his writing when standing in an Italian gunmakers looking at rows of CNC machines they adopted years before the so called "best" makers did.
There may be an indication then as to where to look for best and get your money's worth.
Last edited by Shotgunlover; 12/26/17 12:19 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,625 Likes: 73
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,625 Likes: 73 |
Best Guns are within our reach if you are willing on taking chances at auctions.
I have a friend I shoot with reguarly and he just picked up two very nice Boss side by sides at the last Julia's Auction.
A nice mid 20's 16 gauge with 27" barrels for a little over 10K and a nice 12 bore made around 1908 for under 10K.
Now they both need some things done to get them to a proper level but both came with oak and leather cases.
I estimate another 4K and both will be nice presentable guns.
Oh, he just picked up a nice bar action Grant side lever hammer gun at Holts for under 5K. Now it has sleeved barrels but being already over in the UK the possibilities are endless.
So Best Guns are out there if you are willing to hunt for them.
Mike Proctor
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350 |
+1
An SKB is a best gun to me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 182
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 182 |
Bruce Owen, the then Purdey production manager, wrote an article in Shooting Sportman back in 2002 if memory serves. It is an eye opener, more so than any other piece of writing on the non definiton of best. Does anyone know the month that article was printed? I would like to get a copy of it. On the subject of CNC machining by best quality makers, there were some very interesting comments on the Westley Richards Explora blog about that. Westley Richards uses them but refuses to run batches of guns even though it would be more cost effective in some ways. To keep that stock on hand is actually more expensive so they will use CNC machines but one gun at a time...no batches of actions. They probably make batches of springs, pins, etc for fitting later. I thought that was interesting and transparent of them to say so. If you haven't read the Explora blog, you are really missing some fantastic photography, fascinating behind the scenes info and beautiful guns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,334 Likes: 388
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,334 Likes: 388 |
+1
An SKB is a best gun to me. That's hardly surprising King, considering that you also thought that the anti-gunner Barack Hussein Obama would go down in history as one of our best presidents. Now there's some proof that "best" is a highly subjective term.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 125
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 125 |
You are not asking what is the least expensive best gun you are asking what is the least expensive high grade. For almost all gun makers, any of their models above an upper mid-grade is exactly the same gun. The only difference is the embellishment, hand filing/polish, and quality of wood.
Just as previously stated you can go to the guns of any country and find a work of art. There are thousands of Sauers in this country that are useful for nothing but boat anchors. However, if you see a custom you will know what quality work is. The same can be said for dozens of other makers.
Modern machining of metals maybe a great invention for cost savings but it does nothing to set the gun apart.
That is accomplished only by hand finishing. If you look at the quality of a high grade today and look at one from the 1950s you'll be able to see the difference in the quality of workmanship. You could line up a row of used $15,000 guns and there would always be one that stood out.
You are at the tire kicking stage. Spend your time going to great gun shops and looking at all guns. It will become apparent to you that the appearance of a best gun is immediately recognizable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478 Likes: 16
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478 Likes: 16 |
A best London gun does NOT have to be a Purdey, Boss, or Holland.
There are other London makers with equivalent quality... Beasley, Wilkes, Atkin, Hussey, and Woodward to name a few.
I just imported a best quality 12 ga. 'spring opener with original 27" barrels, awesome condition (but no maker's case) weighing 6 lbs, 3 ozs. made by Henry Atkin in 1930. Paid just south of $15,000 and I think I got a better than fair deal.
Last edited by Chukarman; 12/26/17 05:43 PM.
C Man
Life is short
Quit your job.
Turn off the TV.
Go outside and play.
|
|
|
|
|
