September
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30
Who's Online Now
5 members (Mike McD, DAM16SXS, LeFusil, 2 invisible), 123 guests, and 7 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics36,140
Posts507,738
Members14,079
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 13 of 27 1 2 11 12 13 14 15 26 27
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,615
Likes: 39
GLS Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,615
Likes: 39
There's a rule of thumb that for effective and reliable hitting a vital portion of a turkey's head and neck, your pattern should be a minimum of a 100 hits in a 10" circle to establish the maximum range. This varies from gun to gun, load to load. With TSS, the density rate of deterioration is 30% reduction for each additional 10 yards beyond 40 yards. Theoretically, 300 shot into a 10" circle at 40 will be 210 at 50, 147 at 60, 102 at 70, and 70 at 80 yards, etc. I am only the messenger of this and not an advocate of shooting at these ranges. For my use, I don't need or want 300 shot inside the 10" at 40; the downside is a smaller than a baseball pattern at close ranges and slowly opening towards 40. The tightness of HTL patterns leads to misses at close range. It's like a wide bullet and shooting off a bead is chancy for most of us and why more and more users of it use either adjustable rifle sights, scopes or red dots. Gil

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,883
Likes: 32
Sidelock
***
Online Content
Sidelock
***

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,883
Likes: 32
Originally Posted By: Tyler

Again, I do not consider shooting turkeys at such range to be sporting, ethical or proper. That does not mean that it can't be done repeatedly and consistantly with proper eqipment.


Tyler, I'm curious about your thinking here, purely from a theoretical perspective. I hunt turkey and I wingshoot. That's it. Upland, ducks and geese. I stopped using pump guns after 30 years about 15 years ago and have since exclusively hunted with 12 and 16 gauge SxS that are pre WWII. I have never shot the TSS pellet.

But.....if a .410 is throwing "devastating patterns at 65 yards" and they are repeatable with clearly demonstrated killing power, what is not ethical or proper about that? The whole thing about "sporting" and "ethical" is fundamentally about killing the animal and not wounding it.

I can't imagine having any more of a problem with someone who can kill a turkey at 65 yards with one shot (we all make mistakes sometimes no matter the range) most of the time then I would with someone using new advances in camo or calling. Might not be what I'd choose to do but.....

BTW, I have a copy of The Tenth Legion that a good friend gave to me. What a great book! A bit of an eye opener for a "north of the border" turkey hunter.


The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,061
Likes: 17
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,061
Likes: 17
Originally Posted By: GLS
Tyler, up thread I posted a Tom Kelly quote. It's at the bottom of post #505927. Years ago Mr. Kelly led the unsuccessful fight against legalizing decoys in Alabama for turkeys. Ironically, he was videoed a few years ago with some hunters fanning or "reaping" turkeys. They were standing on a road in full view, holding a fan and a gobbler ran straight to them. I was surprised that he would be a party to that after his position on decoys.
Gil


Kinda hypocritical....

Like I said TSS is for people that like to brag about long shots...

The guys the shoot it and loose turkeys and crack a tooth or two just keep their mouths shut and move on....trust me I talk to turkey hunters all over the country.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,061
Likes: 17
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,061
Likes: 17
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
I shot a scope on a turkey gun one year that gives me a right to have an opinion about one...I also shot 4x5x7 hevi shot a few years...fellows from my local gun club can attest that the fAiry dust pellets don't all pass through.

You TSS bOys are the ones bragging about 90 yard shots with the crap...

I do stand behind what I said about it takes a total moron to shoot a turkey with #9 size shot...not my fault the shoe fits you bOys. cool

Apex Ammunitions response to my question about pellet weight....


9's weigh 1.2grs. 9.5's weigh 1gr.

9's are the perfect TSS pellet size. More energy than lead 4's and equal energy to hevi shot 5's.

My response to Apex...

A lead #4 pellet weighs 3.30 grains....a lead #7 shot weighs 1.50 grains....both are substantially more weight than the smaller TSS pellet. Energy is figured by computing weight and velocity. There is no way a #9 TSS pellet weighing a third of a #4 lead can have more energy than a lead #4 shot moving at the same velocity.....fact is a lead #7 has more energy than a TSS #9 size shot moving at equal velocity.

Put that in yer TSS crAck pipe and puff on it. laugh


A lead #4 is more lethal that 3 TSS #9s...just a fact of life.

#4 shot is harder to get to pattern than fAiry dust sized shot...but with the Winchester Longbeard encapsulated shot technology that's no longer a problem.

I shoot a 3" Longbeard #4 with a Patternmaster Goose tube that measures about .710....and it's devastating.

TSS being harder is generally started at lower velocity than lead also and contrary to the TSS Cult it down gain velocity.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,061
Likes: 17
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,061
Likes: 17
Originally Posted By: GLS
There's a rule of thumb that for effective and reliable hitting a vital portion of a turkey's head and neck, your pattern should be a minimum of a 100 hits in a 10" circle to establish the maximum range.


Ask yourself who wrote this rule of thumb ?

I suspect some out'e dOOr writer that might have shot a handful of turkeys.

I've shot enough turkey shotguns/patterns that I can look at a pattern at various yardages and tell if it's going to be effective.

I don't need to draw circles and count pellet holes to tell.

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 360
Likes: 3
Sidelock
OP Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 360
Likes: 3
Gil,
They where alway here, but not in huntable numbers, the ruff grouse/ Turkey program with Missouri and Kentucky helped bring the birds to a huntable number I think most of the birds came from Missouri but not 100%
My father cured that season with a front and rear sight to later a red dot.
I have taken a few birds with a 410 and it was a joy to carry. Did not know about TSS, but the patterns you are getting out of that 410 is what other turkey hunters dream off. If i owned that 410 / load I would not hunt with anything else but that 410 turkey hammer!
I am thinking very hard this year to go after them with my newly acquired little flint lock made by Ken Netting. We all thought it was a 410 but turned out to be a 3/4 size 28 guage. No complaints here, I'll see if I can work up a load and find some TSS shot. I'll keep you posted on how it turns out.

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,615
Likes: 39
GLS Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,615
Likes: 39
Rich, take a look at the birds these 11 and 9 year old girls killed with blackpowder and TSS. The first link was posted by the father showing his patterns with TSS 9. The second link is a thread on his girls success. These two girls kill a lot of turkeys with their dad. Their father might be the person for you to contact about loads. There are several others that use blackpowder as well. Gil

http://gobblernation.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12637&p=136003#p136003


http://gobblernation.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10559

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,615
Likes: 39
GLS Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,615
Likes: 39
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Originally Posted By: GLS
There's a rule of thumb that for effective and reliable hitting a vital portion of a turkey's head and neck, your pattern should be a minimum of a 100 hits in a 10" circle to establish the maximum range.


Ask yourself who wrote this rule of thumb ?

I suspect some out'e dOOr writer that might have shot a handful of turkeys.

I've shot enough turkey shotguns/patterns that I can look at a pattern at various yardages and tell if it's going to be effective.

I don't need to draw circles and count pellet holes to tell.


Maybe my 41 years of hunting turkeys and reloading for 45 years doesn't count as much as your experience, but if we are going to be objective and not a subjective "I don't need to draw circles and count...", the one thing drawing circles and counting does is allow someone other than you to decide effectiveness for themselves. No one is saying your pattern at 40 yards isn't devastating; after all, it is a 12 gauge shooting almost 2 oz. Do us a favor, shoot your pattern at 40 yards and draw a 10" circle around the most dense concentration, mark them so we can see, and count them for us. Here's what a 10" circle at 40 yards tells us drawn around the most dense part of your pattern: There are approximately 78 square inches in a 10" circle. A 100 pellets (evenly spread, and they never are) yields a theoretical 1.28 pellets per square inch. A thin pattern can miss vital regions in neck and head. It's not enough to hit a snood, wattle or blow a beak or beard off. Not only must the pattern be dense enough, but the delivery (aim) of the dense pattern must hit the target. You challenged me to show my .410 patterns and I did. Your turn. Show us your 12 gauge 1 7/8 oz. Longbeard #4 pattern at 40 yards and draw the 10" circle. Gil

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,061
Likes: 17
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,061
Likes: 17
I've always understood that if my gun didn't shoot straight down the road it moved on..

This moving the 10 inch circle away from the aiming point to see the densest part of the pattern is plum damn silly.

I stopped the childish circling jErking (drawing circles and counting holes) about 10 yearz ago....

Since this video was made I've started shooting the 3" Longbeard...


40 yards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBwjFvWa9Jw

50 yards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CflAvFFGXIs

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,615
Likes: 39
GLS Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,615
Likes: 39
While waiting for jOe to post his pattern photo, there are some who may doubt the penetration of TSS 9's at 40 yards. Here's a little experiment I did six years ago with it. While patterning a load of 1 5/16 oz. TSS9 in my 20 ga., I set up the target at 40 yards. The load has been chronographed at 1089 fps. Behind the paper target I placed an empty steel olive oil can. Top photo is set-up; bottom is result. The shot passed through the first layer into the second layer of steel. This is wicked stuff. I doubt if a turkey's neck and skull are harder to penetrate than this steel can, and that has been verified in the field by me and many others. Yes, it can break teeth, just like steel shot. Which begs another question, if TSS9's are so ineffective as a turkey load, how are so many folks breaking teeth on it?





Page 13 of 27 1 2 11 12 13 14 15 26 27

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2021 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.050s Queries: 35 (0.026s) Memory: 0.8728 MB (Peak: 1.8990 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2021-09-27 22:51:36 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS