doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com DDR J.P. Sauer and Sons info requested

A friend sold me an East German proof marked, Superior Quality 1 marked, 28 1/4" 70mm 12 gauge today that weights 6 pounds, 15 ounces. The importer stamped on the action flat SIMPSON LTD G'BURG ILL and following that M-8 GERMANY. Mike Orlen has opened the chokes to about .722 right and .705 left. The gun has has narrow swivel slings, and a cheek rest, and it's overall in very nice condition. Serial number is 461,xxx. The gun has side clips, greener cross bolt, dealey forend latch, cocking indicators, and line engraving. The sides are scalloped about like an L.C. Smith.

I'd like anybody's input on what I have. I understand after the war, the East Germans and a West German firm both made J.P. Sauer shotguns until about 1970. I've also read that Merkel, Sauer, Simpson, and perhaps other names were put on similar East German side by sides, and I know I'm fortunate to have my gun stamped with the superior quality stamp of a 1 inside of a 0, which means they spent a little more time and effort making the guns of higher quality for export.

But, I'd like to hear more about East German side by sides made in Suhl, and how to date them. My gun has 560 on the bottom of the barrel flats. 1956?

And I'd like to know if disconnecting the automatic safety is much trouble or not.

And my gun has a capped pistol grip with a black hard butt plate.

The cap and butt plate may be plastic, or they might be horn. How do I test to see?

Anything other information about these guns would be much appreciated.

My gun appears to me, to be a high quality piece, on the par with my V. Bernardelli also made in the 1950's.

It's so well balanced that when you pick it up, it seems to come alive, like a good Ithaca Model 37, and it's hard to guess how much it weighs.

I think I bought a bargain Merkel quality shotgun, but what say you?

I could be wrong but I would take that as 1960.
Good solid guns for the money.

Thanks.

I found by reading further, 560 stands for May 1960.

Hi, congrats on your Sauer, sounds like a very nice gun (need pics BTW)! I hope you have many happy and healthy years shooting her. Shotguns made in Suhl (DDR), were made in the Ernst Thalmann Peoples Works. Guns were stamped with some of the great names in pre war German Gunmaking, Merkel, Simson, Wolf, etc. All made on the same factory line, same guns, different names stamped on the guns. Of course as you correctly stated the Q1 mark is the highest quality.

Also, if an East German gun was to be imported into the US (but not West Germany or other european nations) it had to be stamped "Made in Soviet Occupied Germany". I've never seen a gun stamped like this however.

Dating them is exactly how you stated, month then year.

East German guns can be down right pretty, here's my 12ga Buhag Hubertius



Sorry about the pic, can't seem to rotate it.

Best,

Greg

Work horse all the way around.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here's a quick cell phone picture of my Model 8 Sauer

Indeed, typical Kerner-Anson work horse

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

have noticed that most post war east german field guns made prior to 1970 exhibit decent qualities...not quite as nice as pre ww2 guns and not near as nice as pre ww1 guns, but still ok...however, beginning around 1970 field gun quality really began to decline...could be that the commie workers paradise did not quite work out as expected...

I had Merkel 201e from ca. 1956. The engraving and metal work plus Bohler steel barrels were excellent in light 6.5lb gun. The stock finish as typical of entry level series produced stuff at the time was ok. One thing that struck me was the gun was easy to use and maintain right from the start (bought it in what appeared unused condition) unlike newer series produced offerings where the gun has to broken over the knee and disassembly/re-assembly being frustrating process. I do like the nicer wood on newer stuff but do not think sample should be broken in using thousands of rounds to make it pleasure to use and maintain. Rant over

I have to say that Buhag Hubert up there is work of art sort of like old high grade Victor Sarasqueta made at the foothills of Pyrenees.

It's likely my gun in 1960 passed through some graying German's hands in Suhl, that was a young apprentice when Imperial Germany's armies invaded Belgium, and got close enough to Paris, to hear the bells of the Cathedral of Notre Dame. He was paid by the billions of marks in 1923, to make the same shotgun, that he kept making after Hitler committed suicide and Germany was divided by the victorious allies. There's even a chance he lived to see Germany reunited again in 1992, when he was an ancient, old man.

His grandson could still be making the same shotgun in Suhl, today.

History is always so fascinating because of the "what ifs".

What if William II had not been a breech baby? Was it his withered arm that caused him to be so pompous, vain, and insecure, as to allow some damned fool thing in the Balkans to plunge the entire world into the horrors of the First World War?

Or what if his Cousin Nicky in Russia, had told the Serbs that they had allowed the Black Hand to murder the archduke, and they'd better submit unconditionally to the Austrian Ultimatum, or find themselves on their own, as the cost of regicide.

Had there been no World War One, Czar Nicholas might have died of old age and been replaced by another Czar. William II would have lived to 1942 and been replaced by his son. Hitler would have remained anonymous, and there would have been no myth of the Stab in the Back for him to have spread to try and restore Germany's greatness.

Or what if Francis Ferdinand, had simply went hunting stags with his Merkel, instead of taking that trip with Sophie to Sarajevo?

The Model 8 is silent, and says nothing about the history of the men who made it, or the adventures it's had since it's birth in 1960.

But it surely is a fine old shotgun, just as tight as new, and with most of the bluing still on the barrels, and it's walnut as fresh now, after a tiny bit of linseed oil, as it was the year before the Berlin Wall was put up.