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#532438 12/30/18 01:28 AM
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Roger O Offline OP
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I am new to forum and double rifles so forgive the inexperience. I am possibly looking to purchase a Johann Springer back action hammer gun in 450 BPE. It was made about 1904 and is in good original condition. What do you think of the Austrian quality of rifles as compared to their British counterparts.

Last edited by Roger O; 01/01/19 07:19 PM. Reason: Wrong info.
Roger O #532441 12/30/18 05:30 AM
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Hands down, an Austro-Hungarian offering is on par, or superior, to any piece of shrapnel one would acquire from the little British Isles. And probably @ 1/3 the cost too. With a diet of proper ammo, it should last a couple more lifetimes, with minimal tweaking.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Roger O #532480 12/30/18 01:20 PM
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To Roger O
Please can you let know the 4-digit serial nr, probably in the
9xxx range.
Kind regards
Felix Neuberger

felix #532509 12/30/18 09:39 PM
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Roger O Offline OP
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Felix, Thank you for the reply. I really enjoyed your article in DGJ in Summer of “97”. It’s what got me started on a Springer. The one I am considering belongs to a good friend who is really into double rifles. The serial # is 9252 and from your article is approx. circa 1904. It has really good case coloring, nice wood with some dings in the cheekpice and some gouges in the checkering by the grip cap. Other than that it is very nice. Used but not abused, and all original. The barrels are 28” with good rifleing. It is cased with a Springer low power scope, nipple wrench, stuck case extractor, and snap caps. It is sighted in at 50 yds. w/2” groups using 4198. The only thing that worries me is that it is regulated with Sierra 300 gn. 4255 jacketed bullets. The price is in the 12K neighborhood.

Last edited by Roger O; 01/01/19 08:16 PM. Reason: Wrong info.
ellenbr #532511 12/30/18 09:52 PM
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Roger O Offline OP
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Thank you for the response. I know SxS shotguns very well and own many, mostly English and Scottish. When it comes to double rifles and getting them to regulate, I am far out of my element. Fortunately, this one is regulated but instead of using 458 diameter bullets this is somewhere in the 4255.

Last edited by Roger O; 01/01/19 06:52 PM. Reason: Wrong info.
Roger O #532526 12/31/18 09:00 AM
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The serial nr 9252 is probably a misspelling.
According their records 9252 has been
"Hammerlessflinte cal 12" delivered "26.9.1902" to
"Riedenau".
I have counted a total of 19 double rifles in 450K
in their records within the vicinity to this 9252.
Besides others also 2 delivered to the
imperial "chamber" (household).
The nearest number to your 9252 are
either 9282 or 9352.
The serial nr is normally threefold, on the
triggertang, the action body and on the barrelflats.
Recommend you to check.
The 2 cartridge gurus of Vienna are gone since long,
one in 2009, the other one late 199x. (My Kalezky
catalogues came from the second one.)
Cheers
Felix Neuberger

felix #532529 12/31/18 09:43 AM
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Roger O Offline OP
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Felix, Thank you for the reply. The number should have been 9352. Do I have a concern with the 4255 bullet and jacketed versus 458.
Thank you again.
Best regards

Last edited by Roger O; 01/01/19 06:53 PM. Reason: Wrong info.
Roger O #532530 12/31/18 10:05 AM
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Springer built wonderful guns, beautifully fit and finished with very nice styling as well.

The market is way down on double rifles. 12k would be top money in today's market. It would need to be truly exceptional both in grade and condition to bring that money in my mind.

Good luck with it!

Steve


http://www.bertramandco.com/
Booking African hunts, firearms import services

Here for the meltdowns
Roger O #532542 12/31/18 11:55 AM
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Lets clarify piecemeal-wise and I am NOT an expert
on old cartridges
1. 9352 has been delivered 24.11.1903 to
"Prinz .inar PackaTaussoum"
as a "Doppelstutzen 450k".
(The dot could be "C", above is the best
of my deciphering ...)
2. I looked into their catalogue post-1908.
Page 31: This is probably either
their model 57a at 550 Crown or
model 58a at 700 Crown
The b-models would be hammerless.
Both models were available in 450k, "k" means
kurz (short).
3.Page 74:
Zentralfeuer-Kugelpatronen / loaded with black-powder
and lead-bullet
Kaliber 450: 11.6 mm and length of the short one in 65 mm.
4. Re price: A priori, I am biased, so
I can not/will not do any price assessment.
My daughter graduated in national economy.
In one of her scripts: I did read and kept in mind
that "Goods and Services" move from low-price countries
to high-price countries.
...
A 20-year Vertical of Chateau Petrus vintages - the most
expensive red Bordeaux - has a value at the Harrods
wineshop in London, it his no value with the shepherd
in the Hungarian Hortobagy puszta, nor with the indigenous
moose guide on the Kamtschatka peninsula.
..
Prices are a question of social perception
and the prevailing price-levels in the country.
I consider US a high-price-country.
I recommend you to seek the advice from a knowlegdeable
man within the collector fraternity near you or
a gunsmith of your trust.
....
Hallowell had a pair of Springer hareguns on offer,
he started at 28 k$, then down to 24 k$ and I
understand it finally sold for 20 k$.
All barrels full choked, the weaponry for the
harebattles in Central and Eastern Europe of bygone
days.

Cheers
Felix Neuberger

Last edited by felix; 01/01/19 12:35 PM.
Roger O #532547 12/31/18 12:20 PM
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Roger O,
It is a great advantage to know a load that will "shoot" in the rifle. On the other hand, considering when the gun was made, it is not possible that any Sierra bullet was used in the original regulation. You can very well try to find a different load that will "shoot"( maybe at 100 meters), while having an acceptable load in your "back pocket".
Mike

Last edited by Der Ami; 12/31/18 03:44 PM.
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