doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help

Thank you for adding me to the forum! This is my first post so please be patient if I mess up the photos. This is my father-in-laws shotgun. He got it somewhere many years ago. He bought it as you see it and never fired it. Too pretty I guess. I have used the forum posts here to help identify some of the symbols on the gun. I still cannot figure out grade or age or value. Can anyone here help with this beautiful shotgun? If not can someone direct me to someone who can? Thank you so much and Happy New Year!

ENM,
First off, the gun was marketed by Otto Bock, as you said and it is plainly so marked. I don't believe it is a JP Sauer, however. There is a marking on the rib, partially hidden by the edge of the photo, that seems to be BSW. This would be "Berliner Schuler Werks", which was one of the names Simmons used while they were desperately trying to avoid the NAZIs taking over their company. It was a Jewish family owned company during a time it was becoming more and more difficult to be Jewish in Germany. Also there was residual resentment by other manufacturers because Simmons was allowed to work after WW1 for the German Army. I believe the S on 3 triangles was their logo. It was proofed in Suhl, during July 1936( 736). The 12 in a circle, over 70 mm, means it is 12 ga, with 2 3/4 " chambers. Since the standard German chamber was shorter than this in 1936, the gun may have been made for export to the US( not positive). The crown U under the eagle is the mark for a View proof, after a definitive proof. This view proof amounts to a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions. The 13/1 is the diameter of the bore, ahead of the chamber, expressed in gauge measurement. This equates to about 18.26mm. The crown W, means the barrel is choked, but the amount of constriction in not shown. The Nitro means it was nitro proofed( ie smokeless powder). There are several other marks that I can't make out. If crown S is included( and it should be), this means it was proofed to fire shot. It has fluid steel( Fluss Stahl) barrels. The steel company was "cut off" by the edge of the photo, but was often Krupp. It has cocking indicators , interrupting sears, and better than the basic engraving. I am not up on the "grades and models", so I won't be of much help in that regard. JP Sauers are very fine guns, but I believe this Simmons is much more interesting, due to the history. The Simmons family was recently able to regain ownership of the company. I hope you find this helpful.
Mike

Thanks Mike here are a couple more pics of the gun showing the rest of the barrel marking and the bottom of the receiver. Let me know your thoughts, Ed

Ford: that is Berlin-Suhler Waffen-Und Fahrzeugwerke & Simson. Anyway, I believe it to be a Kerner-Anson action.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Of course you are right about BSW, I didn't take the time to look it up. Unless I missed it again, Emil Kerner added an interrupting sear to the Anson and Deeley action, so I believe we are thinking of the same thing.

ENM,
With the exception of the precise name of BSW, the additional photos verify my guesses.
Mike

Beutiful looking gun

Could you pleasure us with a few more images of the area forward of the flats further up on the tubes, additional area of the water-table & the area between the strikers?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here you go Raimey, please forgive the bugs in the pic. It is the only 2 pics I have at the moment but I think they show what you need. Ed

Many thanks for the effort. Sideclips or wings and what looks like a hidden Greener Crossbolt, or does it protrude when the toplever is activated? Also, is that a screw in bottom of the extension / fastener well?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

sorry Raimey without the gun in front of me I cannot remember about the bolt or if that is a screw. I may see the gun soon but not for a few days. Keep watching as I will post the answers as soon as I find out. So with all this being told from previous posts we still don’t know a grade. There has to be something I am missing. Any way for me to contact Simson?