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Miller, this one in the tiny url somewhat resembles your Thalson except it appears to also have the roll crimping ability judging from all the parts displayed. Nice looking shot/powder dippers accompanying it. All yours for the bidding. wink

https://tinyurl.com/y24pufyk
Here's an unusual in design 20 ga. roll crimper made by the Ideal Mfg. Co., New Haven, CT. The head holder slides down on the two rails applying pressure to the crimp. It's a slick little rig and makes a beautiful crimp. I've used it (and others) on my 3" turkey loads. The third photo has patent info and perhaps a date. 20 ga. RTO's are rare in comparison to 16 and 12. 28 ga. and .410 more so. I've noticed a revival of interest in the old crimpers beyond collecting from turkey hunters wishing to handload shells. These Armstrong powered crimpers make as nice a crimp as can be made regardless of tool used or technique employed. Gil





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Gil;
That may well be who made my Thalson, though there are some differences in them. I don't know if more than one comp[any made them or not. Thalson was the importer, not maker of the tools. Everything on mine though says Thalson, including the box with the only hint of the maker, is it does say France.

Slick looking Ideal crimper you have there. I agree with you these do make excellent crimps. Most of mine are unmarked as to brand & have the plain heads. I do have one which uses the head with pins, the 10 gauge one I mentioned for which I also made a 12 gauge head. Does this Ideal have the reversible pins that will make either a flat or rounded crimp?

I like that loading block, I don't get that fancy, just use a piece of 2x of suitable width.


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Miller, the Ideal doesn't have reversible pins. My Bridgeport 12 does, but I don't see how its done. I see no way to change it. My 12 gauge loading block is homemade with a spade bit and scrap lumber. Do you see any practical difference between the flat and rounded crimp? While these tools preceded plastic hulls, what difference would have it made on the paper shells? It seems to me that the flat top on a modern plastic hull would eventually stress the plastic more than the round crimp. Gil

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Notice the loading block was made to accommodate pinfire shells. That was an interesting era for loading tools, as nothing had been standardized since leaving the muzzleloading era.

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Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist
Notice the loading block was made to accommodate pinfire shells. That was an interesting era for loading tools, as nothing had been standardized since leaving the muzzleloading era.


I was scratching my head and trying to figure out the function of the slot cut across the holes for the shell heads. I guess it would be tough to get a pinfire shell into the hole without that slot.

I love Miller's practice of keeping the shell upside down right until the moment of charging with powder to avoid double charges. As long as gravity keeps on working, it makes things pretty foolproof. As many years as I've been reloading and reading about it, I never heard that technique mentioned.

Damascus mentions buying his Bowman press at a "car boot sale". If that is anything like what we call Auto Parts Swap Meets, I have had a lot of luck finding reloading dies, equipment, and components at them. Often, these car guys have zero interest in the stuff, and sell it very cheap rather than take it back home and scrap it. I bought a nice 10 ga. roll crimper for a buck at the last one I attended. The guy told me I could have it for free if I could tell him what the hell it was. I gave him the dollar anyway, and we were both happy.


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Gil; I the Ideal #27 handbook two roll crimpers are listed which have the reversible pins, the diamond & the Star. The Star looks identical to your crimper except on the one pictured in the manual the star down on the frame appears to be either painted on or a decal, rather than cast in as on yours. I suspect yours is an earlier version. The reason stated for the separate shell header sliding on the two rails was that it would handle any length shell in a straight line fashion without a tendency to bend the shell.

It was also stated that until the Coming of repeating shotguns the square crimp was universally preferred as it gave more resistant to opening, giving better powder combustion. The rounded crimp became a necessity for repeaters to prevent hanging on the chamber in feeding. The pins on mine & appears the same on those pictured in this #27 manual are secured by set screws entering the face of the head. y crimper closely resembles the Diamond crimper pictured & does not have the separate header nor the rails.

This #27 was published by Lyman & is I believe the first one they had published after purchasing the old Ideal Co. The one I have is a reprint & does not include a date, only the number, but as I recall this took place in the mid-1920s

I have an original #37 Lyman/IOdeal manual & it still lists the Star crimper but the base is now different, the New crimp head does not use pins & it now has a belt drive designed to speed up the crimp head. The Straight line loading set is also listed. I do know that both continued on the market through most of the 1950s but not sure just how long.


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Daryl, that's an interesting observation about pinfires and the loading block. Manufrance started operations in St. Etienne in 1888 long after the beginning of the decline of pinfire which was the center of the pinfire universe as the cartridge was invented by Frenchman LeFraucheaux. However, Manufrance probably had a lot of Frenchmen hanging on to their old guns and MF may have intentionally put the slots in the block to accommodate them. There would be no other reason for the slits. Here's a photo of the rear of both blocks. The slit could have easily been made by a rotary chop saw blade. The holes appear to have been drilled by a Fortnser type bit. The bit pilot holes are visible in the larger block. Gil

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Miller, thanks for the explanation. It is appreciated. There's something special, at least to me, about handloading with these vintage tools and using them in the same era guns. Here's a photo of the Ideal's head showing the pins.


The next series shows a Bridgeport (B.G.I.) 12 ga. crimper with an 1891 patent date that I mentioned previously. It has several features which probably made it expensive for the era. In addition to it being capable of reversing from round to square shoulders, it has a "rocking" or pivoting head holder making it more adaptable to varying shell length either on the shell being crimped as it goes into the head or with shorter or longer shells. It also has a metal tube in the crimper's head that is spring loaded to maintain pressure on the OSC and wads at all stages of crimping. It is the bright line circle in a below photo. Another photo shows the screws that are loosened to switch between square or round crimps. It must have taken a special tool to reach the screws as they aren't reachable with a standard screw driver or the head was removed by disassembly of the crimper. Good luck on that. I will leave well enough alone. Gil




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Gil;
That BGI tool looks a lot like the one I have, but don't recall it having any makers mark on it, will have to get it out & look it over closely. I didn't have any problem removing the head on mine, just got a grip on it with something non-marring, don't recall now exactly what I used, & cranked it backward. I have a Williams brand "Channel-Lock" which has been heated & the hardness taken out of the Jaws. I have used these many times with about a 1/16" thick piece of aluminum under the jaws for gripping things & this is probably what I used here, just don't recall for certain.


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