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I'm loving this thread!

Mergus


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No doubt the Reilly pocket pistols were intended to be used with silver bullets.

SRH


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Still working on Reilly manufacturing piece. it is now very solid. In the meantime, for Reilly .500 BPE shooters, here is a load which works for 9.3X75R from this line:

https://www.handloadersbench.com/forum/m...ble-rifle/page2

the S/N, on the bottom trigger guard tang, is 203XX. The legend on the barrel is just, "E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London", on the left barrel and "& Rue Scribe" on the right barrel. There neither is nor was any numbers with the addresses. Mine has had the barrels re-blacked sometime in the distant past and I believe the butt stock has been refinished. The butt is a beautiful piece of walnut. I has a keyed forearm, is a Jones underlever, steel grip cap and butt plate. I suppose it is scroll engraving and is very fine. Both lock plates have "E.M. Reilly & Co. engraved at the top edge. Oh, I want to remember the gentleman I bought it from some 20 years ago told me the rib had been recut. I don't know how to tell other than it is in good condition. Mine has a cheek rest and a silver escutcheon inlaid approximately 6 inches forward of the butt plate and about 1 1/2 inches rearward of the butt stock sling stud., one standing and one folding, shallow "V" rear sight and a silver bead front sight.....maybe. I guess it's silver.

My "Nitro for Black" load is 60 grs. of IMR-3031, open cell foam filler to fit the empty space to the bottom of the bullet and a 350 gr. hard cast bullet. Group size runs between 2" and 2 1/2" at 50 yards. A Hawk bullet of the same weight can be substituted.

I was never able to get a straight black powder load to shoot to the sights or regulate. I did work up a duplex load of 8 grs. of SR-4759 under either 110 or 115 grs. of Old Eynsford 2F, a beeswax base wad, an SPG grease cookie, a .020 card wad over that and all under 350 gr. cast bullet of 25-1 alloy, sized to .500 and paper patched. It's a PITA to load but it does shoot to point of aim and regulates both barrels. Group size runs around 3 inches at 50 yards.

I don't know if all Reilly's have Henry rifling but mine does. I'll never own another rifle so rifled.


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======================================================================================================================
Questions on Reilly as a "vertical" gun making concern (making all parts himself)
.


This will go over some old posts summarizing them, and asking for opinions:

By 1860 EM Reilly, building on the expertise of his Father J.C. and his own business acumen had created an empire. With his partners (unknown), he was running two huge buildings at 502 New Oxford and 315 Oxford Streets. 315 included a 50 yard shooting range; a 300 yard private shooting range was located nearby at Shepard's bush. These two building included retail sales spaces, manufactories and EM Reilly's residence. 315 was located next to Purdy's located at 314 1/2, whose shop was dwarfed by the size of Reilly's building.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

In these two buildings Reilly created multiple streams of revenue for the company:

1) He made Serial Numbered bespoke long-guns at a rate of about 2 a day for every day of the year - shotguns, rifles, rook rifles, double, single, multiple barrels, hammer guns, muzzle loaders, center break guns, breech loaders, Jones underlevers, etc. He allegedly built every piece of these guns. He bored, honed, chambered and rifled the barrels, cut the stocks, made and filed the actions. By 1880 this bespoke gun production increased to 3 a day. Customers were allowed to watch the progress of their gun from day to day in the factories.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

...1862 article on a fight in Sarawak................... 1900 book
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

2). He inspected, finished and engraved long guns made under contract from Birmingham which he sold off the rack with his name on the rib. To do this he juggled contacts with Birmingham gun makers and with other London gun makers.

Non-serial numbered gun contracted for and retailed by Reilly
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

3). In the 1860's He made over 500 Green Brothers breech loaders and 6000 Reilly-Comblain breech loaders, to which he had exclusive manufacturing rights, probably contracted to a factory in Birmingham.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

4). Per at least one poster, he also manufactured guns for other prominent London gun makers.

Here is a non SN'd 12 bore he made about 1890 for Oaks & Co. Madras:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

5). He assembled high-quality revolvers shipped to him in parts from Liege, engraved them, had them proofed in England and retailed them with his name on the rib.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

6) He engraved revolvers and pistols from named manufacturers such as Colt, S&W, Trantor, Adams, Walker, etc. and put his name on the ribs and retailed them.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

7). He inspected engraved and retailed long-guns from named manufacturers such as Westley-Richards putting his name on the guns while retaining the names of the makers.

8). He made in their entirety air-cane guns with his name on them, but no SN.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/05/21 11:35 PM.

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9) He engraved everything including swords and bayonets:



10) He manufactured cartridges and other ammunition bits:




11). He sold guns wholesale to gun clubs and Yoemanry Militia.



12). And from the beginning he conducted a huge retail business in used long guns and pistols that he would inspect, test and guarantee.

May 1834 article on the futility of amateurs trying to find “bargains” in local bankruptcy sales:


EM Reilly had to be quite the entrepreneur to keep all these business balls in the air at one time and indeed he was. When he died in July 1890 he had just about the same amount of cash in his account, Ł8400, as was left to him by his father J.C. upon J.C.’s death in Jan 1864. But he had the buildings and the inventory, indicating he must have plowed his earnings back into his company.

As research continues, here are some thoughts which I’d appreciate some help with. There are some very knowledgeable readers here who have forwarded comments both skeptical and encouraging…LeFusil, Justin, and others. And now it’s time for some UK’ers to wade in because this is London history.

300 employees - a “vertical” vice “horizontal” company

By 1880 EM. Reilly allegedly (I have not personally seen these census records) told a census taker that he employed about 300 people. This is an enormous number!!! The London 19th century businesses were especially entrepreneurial. In 1850 there were only 7 firms in all of London with more than 350 employees.



David Trevallion told me that Purdey employed about 12 persons in 1953…Holland&Holland a max of about 25 in the 1890’s. 300 employees in 1880 would make Reilly one of the largest if not the largest gun-maker in London. Per David this would change his ideas about the nature of gun-making in London in the 19th century.

London gun makers (and for the most part the Birmingham as well) were “horizontal”…relying on an intricate network of sub-contractors; i.e. they supervised and subcontracted the essential work to others in the trade and assembled and quality controlled the final product.

But there were a few “vertical” gun making firms at the time…beginning in the 1850’s with the Colt Factory; and later Trantor…which claimed to do everything internally, If Reilly had 300 employees in 1880 (which would have included retail sales persons at three locations including Paris, shop foremen, stockers, action filers, etc.), and if he could allow customers to follow the progress of their orders in person in the factory, then most certainly the Reilly Company was, unusually, a “vertical” one as maintained in the ads…. I.e. It made everything internally for his Serial Numbered guns.

Questions:
— Is it possible to verify that Reilly employed 300 persons in 1880? It looks as if someone got a list of the number of employees of companies in London from the 1851 census.
— Are there English business publications from that time period with information on British companies in London? The above article comment has to be based on something.

Here’s what I will be doing:
— I intend to go over the 1861, 71 and 81 London census person by person to record who was involved in the gun trade at the time (unless this has been done somehow). It will take awhile but I’ll publish the result. David thinks there will be less than 1,000 workers in London. We’ll see.

Last edited by Argo44; 05/25/19 06:23 AM.

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======================================================================================================================
Questions on Machine Tools used for manufacturing guns
.
Now I’m going to look silly in this gun-making/smithing group. I’m trying to figure out what machines Reilly might have had in his buildings to make bespoke guns to the tune of up to 3 a day in the late 1800’s:

In June 1898 Reilly gave up 502 (16) New Oxford Street which the company’d occupied and where they’d made guns for 51 years. You’ll see from the chart that bespoke gun orders at that time had fallen from a high of over 1,000 in the early 1880’s to about 250 a year. A couple of very knowledgeable posters have suggested that I take a look at what items were sold from that building. If gun workshops were located in 16 New Oxford Street, the equipment had to go someplace - there would have been no room at 277 Oxford St., which already was a “manufactury” on its own. So now I need to search the British papers, specialty publications and possibly auctions for sales from that building in 1898. I am not a gunsmith, a metallurgist, a machinist, or a mechanical engineer specializing in manufacturing processes. So I need some help on what to look for; Here is my thinking in the subject:

Manufacturing by template: Historically British gun making in Birmingham and London was based on “templates.” With template made parts, hand filed and finished, tolerances varied by as much as 1/16”. Parts of course could not be interchanged. Everything was “bespoke.” Actions, hammers, etc. filed accordingly. Even so Birmingham and London, with the “horizontal” organization of the gun trade, with artisan apprentice trained workers, demonstrated time and again they could produce an enormous number of hand-made guns including hundreds of thousands of military weapons, the major production bottleneck being the making and inletting of the stocks.

Gauges/made to tolerance system: The “American system” arrived in England in the 1850’s, e.g: guns built to tolerances measured by gauges, made by milling machines with interchangeable parts. The American System in the beginning was mostly limited to London. The guns initially made on this system were for the military and with parts being interchangeable were were markedly more expensive than the hand-made versions. Birmingham was late to adopt the milling machines and especially the major bottle-neck for military production - the stock making reproduction lathes. It remained a hand-made haven.

So, a 50 year old factory at 502 (16) Oxford would have been unlikely to have had the milling machines etc. necessary for mass production of military type weapons. It would have been geared to a 19th temp-plate bespoke gun making process with traditional stock makers, action filers, engravers, bone-meal Damascus barrel browning, etc.. Thus, I think all I’d be looking for as far as gun making machinery for sale would be the following - with the help of Greener’s “Gunnery in 1858” book: see: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/43799/43799-h/43799-h.htm

— barrel making:

……. borer:


From advertisements, Reilly had barrel borers at least as early as 1840. It’s possible Reilly could have been making his own Damascus barrel stocks from the 1840’s- on…or he could have bought barrel blanks from Birmingham. I won’t address this. But most publications claim that by late 1890’s over 75% of British Damascus barrels came for Liege. I can say more about his.

……. Barrel grinder:


…….Rifling, honing, lapping, etc. Reilly always sold a lot of rifles. Rifling could be hand done…at least up to 1860’s. Later on Reilly could have had one of several rifling machine:

1863 Pratt & Whitney sine bar rifling machine made in UK by Greenwood and Batley:

Muir & sons rifling machine:

Or an 1883 Greenwood and Batley rifling machine (sine bar)


— Actions, hammers, springs, side plates, trigger guards: The actions would have been made to temp-plate and hand filed. However, as the 1800’s advanced, he probably had some milling machines in the buildings.

Stocks: the Stocks (and Reilly stocks to me are almost immediately recognizable) would have been hand made. He imported a lot of French Walnut. Stock making was the big bottle neck to military grade production thus the adoption of American Lathe copying machines. He probably didn’t need this machine:

Blanchard Stock Copying lathe


Lathes: He would have had foot treadle lathes for making pins and screws. David Trevallion told me that was his first job with Purdey in 1953..operate the foot treadle lathe. These and been around forever.



Power: Entire factories in Birmingham were run on a 125 HP steam engine with leather belt driven machines and that from 1820 onwards. This and the traditional hand/foot power would have been the power source for an Reilly workshop at 502 (16) New Oxford Street or 315 (277) Oxford Street.

Here are some photos of the American governments arsenal at Harpers Ferry - I’ve been trying to identify the machines in the gun shop - I live close enough to go up there to take a look:






He also made cartridges, took out patents on improving cartridges and marked these under the Reilly name. He must have had cartridge and bullet making machines.

Questions: When I search British newspapers normally I’ll search under the address “502” or “502 New Oxford” or “Reilly” or variants. However, if I were to look for gun manufacturing equipment and machines for sale in 1898, I will search for “borer,” “grinder,” “treadle lathe,”…but are there other signature machines associated with gun-making from that time period which would signal what Reilly had in that building? Drill presses? I don’t think screw manufacturing machines were available until the 1880’s

I’ll ultimately write this up in a pamphlet….the old saw…”If it’s not written, it didn’t exist” is the driving force. But I would like some sanity checks. I intended to visit Southern on Saturday 27 April for a few hours…my first trip to a SxS gathering…and intended to check in with DGJ and try to make contact with some of the writers who have encouraged this research. Per a phone call over the week-end, however, other priorities have intervened and I'm headed abroad again. But if there are other gun making machines I should be looking for in sales advertisements in the 1898 press, would appreciate commentary.

Last edited by Argo44; 04/17/19 10:54 AM.

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===================================================================================\
Outlier Serial Numbers

-- On P. 20 is the new short history of Reilly; I stand by every word of it. It includes a chart dating serial numbers.
-- On P. 22 is the list of extant or known Reilly guns by SN.
Everything advances in order from (c1825) 001 to about 3400 in 1847. Then once at 502 New Oxford Street the main-line picks up at about SN 8400 and continues unbroken to about 36,000 (1912)...with a side line reserved by J.C....from about 7000 to 8060 (early 1847 to Sep 1857).

Well, into this well-ordered universe...and E.M was organized....outliers - odd serial numbers - occasionally come to light. Here are 6 of them with discussions, illustrating that even if your gun has an out of sequence SN, it might still be dated using other means.

========================================================
3007 - It had to have been made after Jan 1859 and may not be a Reilly number - might actually be 13007
?????

Advertisement:
http://www.tennants.co.uk/Catalogue/Lots/225065.aspx
A 19th Century 16 Bore Double Barrel Pinfire Shotgun by E.M. Reilly & Co., 315 Oxford Street, London, the 73.5cm browned steel barrel signed on the rib, with Birmingham proof marks and numbered 3007, with signed foliate engraved back action, under-lever break, walnut stock with chequered grip and fore-end


Discussion: Address shows it cannot have been made before Jan 1859 when Reilly opened 315 Oxford St. it is a center break gun. With a Jones underlever, patent was given in Sep 1859, you could push the first possible date further forward but I've seen a muzzle loader converted to center break many years later. It has Birmingham proof marks and the "SN" is uncharacteristically on the barrel. This is either not a Reilly SN - all Reilly SN'd guns at the time were London proofed - or it is an outlier. There are no photos of the SN...it could be a typo. Could it possibly be 13007 - 1863?

The gun is very similar to Terry Buffum's 13033. Perhaps there is a "1" missing from the front of the SN?


=========================================================
3402 - SN would indicate early 1847 - address shows it to be post Feb 1868
Terry Buffum


Advertisement:
https://live.amoskeagauction.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/18/lot/6687?url=%2Fm%2Fsearch%3Fkey%3Dreilly
.577 cal, Rifle SxS; Percussion hammer gun, Muzzle Loader (Buffum).
serial #3402, about .58 cal, 23 1/2” heavy four groove rifled bores rating about excellent showing some very light frosting. The barrels show very nice contrasting gray and brown mottled damascus twist their full-length, showing also some remnants of some very light pinprick pitting scattered about the left tube. The left tube is maker marked with London address, the right with “& Rue Scribe Paris”. ...The locks are crisp and mechanically functional and feature forward-sliding safeties, the case-hardened breeches feature platinum blowout plugs and both of the triggers show nice checkering on their faces; (3B7147-157) {ANTIQUE} [Terry Buffum Collection]





Discussion: The right tube has "rue Scribe." It is a muzzle loader. But with rue Scribe it has to be after Feb 1868....the earliest gun with rue Scribe we've found is 12 bore's 14983.. So the SN is unexplainably quirky. Given the completeness of the address, I still think Reilly made the gun.

=========================================================
3514. - Label would place it between late 1855-Jan 1959 - Might be 13514?


Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London. 13bore. Shotgun SxS. Muzzle loader, hammer gun.
Advertisement:
C1850 - CASED IN ORIGINAL MAHOGANY CASE WITH REILLY TRADE LABEL.BARRELS MARKED 13 BORE. RIB ENGRAVED WITH REILEY, 502 NEW OXFORD STREET, LONDON. DAMASCUS BARRELS WITH RAMROD. GOOD COLOURED ACTION WITH SOME SCROLL ENGRAVING. LARGE TRIGGER GUARD ENGRAVED WITH DOGS. PINEAPPLE FINIALS. STOCK REPAIRED. OVERALL GOOD CLEAN FIREABLE CONDITION.
https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns-black-powder/reilly/percussion/12-gauge/170610144659005



Discussion: Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street would indicated it were made between April 1847 and Oct 1859 when the name of the company formally changed to E.M. Reilly & Co. It is neither part of the JC "7000" series nor the main-line Reilly series. However, the label is one used between late 1855/1856 and Jan 1859 (with the medals from the 1851 and 1855 world fairs). In spite of the odd number, I feel Reilly made the gun.

Edit: 3514 is very close to this gun in lines..12920. 12920 has a similar label but with EM Reilly and the building sketch. Thus I'm inching towards believing there should be a "1" in front of this number 13514, and the case is either older than the gun or an old label was used.



=========================================================
10021 - SN would place it 1856; However it has to be post 1865
- a remanufactured Enfield with a Snider breech added?


Advertisement:
https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogu...seur-collector/
A .577" Volunteer Snider 3 band rifle by Reilly, 55" overall, barrel 36˝" with London proofs and Enfield inspector's mark, the breech block having "Snider Patent" mark; lock bearing crowned "VR" and "1865" over "L.A. Co" and engraved "E.M. Reilly & Co, New Oxford St, London"; walnut fullstock with brass mounts, trigger guard with eyelet securing chain and nipple protector, and numbered 10,021; with single sling swivel, original steel ramrod, muzzle plug, German silver rearsight cover stamped "Snider", and with registration mark, and triangular socket bayonet (no scabbard),


Discussion: Clearly a military rifle retailed by Reilly and proofed by Enfield. It has to be post 1865 (Snider patent). Thus is cannot have a Reilly 10000 SN which would have had it being made about 1856 if it were originally made as a Snider. I could believe 15021 - 1868. But unfortunately the SN is not pictured so it remains unclear. The brass trigger housing though is similar to other Reilly-made and serial numbered Enfields and Sniders and the stock neck seems slimmer than a normal Enfield/Snider. Reilly sold wholesale rifles to the Yoemanry militia and rifle clubs; usually these "volunteer" rifles were not made by him, only ordered and retailed. It could be that it was originally an 1856 Muzzle-Loading Enfield, remanufactured with the Snider breech - However, in such a case the name on the barrel would have been "Reilly," not "E.M. Reilly & Co."

=========================================================
4573 - Address dates it to between Aug 1835 and Mar 1847 - Note the bore size stamp...


Advertisement:
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/76/400/engraved-jc-reilly-percussion-sporting-gun
The smoothbore barrel gauges just over 6 bore at the muzzle (.93) and has a post front sight, "J.C. REILLY 316 HIGH HOLBORN LONDON" on top at the breech, and London proofs, "7" and "4573" on the bottom. The breech, locks, and furniture all have classic scroll patterns and engraved line borders. The serial number on the lower tang is faint. The stock is checkered at the wrist and has a flat buttplate. The address on the barrel indicates the gun was manufactured approximately 1835-1847 based on Joseph Charles Reilly's move dates. .. 6 bore guns were used for hunting elephants and other big and dangerous game in Africa and India in the 19th century.



Discussion:
Terry Buffum thought this J.C. Reilly so unusual that he bought it...going down the Reilly rabbit-hole again! The SN doesn't fit known patterns but the address would date in between 1835-47 per above. Once he receives it, he'll photograph it and analyze it and I'll post more, In the meantime, it's a familiar shape and size...just an unfamiliar number. The ad writer at least got the Reilly dates at High Holborn right...a first..showing he's glanced at this line - though the fact there are other errors in the ad show he didn't read it all very carefully - wonder if the ad writer is related to one of our posters? I think J.C. was more "flexible" on his numbering system than his son E.M.

=========================================================
9137. - not a Reilly SN


Advertisement:
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Odd%20Fel...2040%20Cal..htm
NeedlefireTarget Rifle E.M. Reilly 40 Cal.
E.M. Reilly & Co, 502 Oxford St. London


Discussion: Reilly sold a lot of these rook rifles with his name on them. But so did others - identical guns. This is the only one I can find with a SN. It has E.M Reilly & Co...on the barrel which normally would indicate it was post Oct 1859. However the SN, if it were a Reilly, would date it to 1851, an impossibility. So Reilly likely retailed this rifle - he did not make it.

I==============================

I'll add this comment: A couple of "3000" numbers above look to be missing a "1" in front of the number. I've found anotherr Reilly in the 2000 series with a "1" almost illegible on the back of the number. Perhaps "1"'s were subject to wear...or perhaps they just weren't put on certain guns.

Also, especially in from the mid-1870's-1890 thereabouts Reilly "3"'s and "5"'s could be very difficult to distinguish. Terry Buffum noted this; some of his guns that he thought had a "5" actually had a "3" when brought to auction, etc. Earlier number engraving on the tang seemed to vary more.


Last edited by Argo44; 01/29/20 10:49 PM.

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So still no factory ever found ?

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Originally Posted By: [censored
]So still no factory ever found ?


So you still can not read?


http://www.bertramandco.com/
Booking African hunts, firearms import services

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I'm continuing to add trivia to this line and believe that some very knowledgeable SxS experts are now coming around to understanding that Reilly did indeed build guns...a lot of them...33,000 SN'd guns and by 1880 over 1000 a year...3 a day...not counting what they built for others.

Here's a page from the 1864 Williams' Manufacturing Directory.
-- Reilly is listed as a "Gun, Pistol and Rifle Manufacturer." (no mention of Reilly as a "retailer.")


-- Interestingly he's also listed under "Swords, Cutlers and Manufacturers."





I'm wondering if "Reeves" worked for Reilly directly. Will be researching this.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/26/19 10:31 PM.

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