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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103 |
the states can do pretty much whatever they decide to do--which can be pretty darned restrictive if you happen to live in California. So focus on fighting your battles at the state level. And demand "good science" from those who would push to further restrict lead ammunition. We tried good science in CA and we got crap back from our legislators such as, "hunters are poisoning the homeless population by donating wild game to homeless shelters because the game meat is contaminated with lead." You can't make this stuff up. Like everything in politics, it's a numbers game. Hunters in CA . . . you don't have the numbers. You can play the squeaky wheel, but you're more like off a baby carriage than a big old hunter's 4 WD truck.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103 |
Again, I try to only speak from experience. I've never hunted public land or on a WMA, so I don't know about them. Some years ago I hunted doves on some properties that TPW had under their control. We used lead shot to hunt doves and squirrels. If we had gone back to hunt ducks we would have had to use steel shot on the same property.
Alan The problem with lead shot and "experience" is that the rules are different from state to state. If you're somewhere you're unfamiliar with the rules, make sure you read and understand them. Telling the game warden it isn't that way where you're from won't work.
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 122
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 122 |
Oh, I'm pretty big on rule following. There's enough of Texas for me to hunt in. But, yes, I understand.
Alan
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711 Likes: 730
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711 Likes: 730 |
A bald eagle that ingests lead shot is in trouble, more so than just about any other bird species. The physiology of bald eagles breaks down lead/antimony alloy very efficiently, due to strong stomach acids. Shot that would pass through other creatures ends up in a bald eagle’s bloodstream. That said, there will be most of a dozen of them, hanging with the crows, on any road killed deer or moose north of about highway 95 in Minnesota.
There is absolutely no shortage of them.
Best, Ted
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,670 Likes: 372
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,670 Likes: 372 |
Ted, It is not just strong stomach acids. In reality it is the crop gizzard where pebbles and bullets or pellets reside for long periods while they are ground away and then easily absorbed into the blood stream. A pellet or two will kill any bird but in a human or other mammal, it will pass through, largely undigested and thus fairly harmless as a rare event.
Last edited by BrentD; 04/17/19 08:14 PM.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 122
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 122 |
Well, if they are that fragile and there are that many lead laden carcasses laying around , I'm surprised there's a one of them left.
Alan
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,444 Likes: 204
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,444 Likes: 204 |
....It is not just strong stomach acids. In reality it is the crop gizzard where pebbles and bullets or pellets reside for long periods while they are ground away and then easily absorbed into the blood stream. A pellet or two will kill any bird.... Maybe, you could clarify some confusion that I have about this. We're told that Eagles, which consume lead laced gut piles and lost lead shot game animals, succumb to lead poisoning quickly. Thus, the pictures of stacked dead Eagles, collected during the fall hunting season. How does that reconcile with the reality that one or two lead pellets require long periods in the gizzard of an Eagle to result in lethal blood levels of lead? Apparently, lethal blood levels of lead have not been established in Eagles, or so says sources like Soar Raptors. Where can I learn about the absolute avian lethality of one or two lead pellets, from I would assume hunters and shooters? Is it settled science that only lead discharged from a firearm is toxic to birds, or was the one to two pellet example used for emphasis? While not as commonly toxic to Eagles as lead, are birds susceptible to copper and zinc poisoning? I ask because copper and brass are likely components of lead free bullets. Do you think that while rare to less common, that scientific fact could result in calls for or actual banning of the use of current lead free hunting bullets?
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103 |
It would appear, based on measuring lead levels in various species of birds, that some are more tolerant than others. Woodcock, for example--per a study by the University of Wisconsin--often show extremely high lead levels. Yet none of the birds studied had lead pellets in their digestive system. And the researchers could not determine the source of the lead. Given what woodcock eat (worms), it only seems logical that they would ingest lead because the soil in which the worms live contains lead, from a variety of sources.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127 Likes: 1129
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127 Likes: 1129 |
The gizzard in an eagle not only performs the task of primary digestion, by grinding up harder to digest food, but also forms pellets of indigestible substances. Within 24 hours of ingestion these pellets form and travel back to the mouth where they are vomited out and expelled. The usual substances contained in them are hair, feathers, and sometimes bone. Can someone explain to me why a lead fragment would not be included in the substances that an eagle cannot digest, and would not be expelled like all other indigestibles within 24 hours or so?
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,670 Likes: 372
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,670 Likes: 372 |
Stan, ever seen an eagle cough pellet?
Ever seen gravel, very very worn gravel in a gizzard?
What is a lead shot pellet more similar too, a feather or gravel?
You guys can read the biology literature as well as anyone else. Look it up, because nothing that anyone tells you here that you don't want to hear is going to change your preformed minds. There is a lot of data out there on all of these aspects - if you really want to know.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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