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Forums10
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Most Online1,344 Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
Beg to differ, Suh. If you follow the regime I do with my pre-1913 Graded ejector Smith guns:-- 1100 fps. loads max- regular cleaning, and no reloads, your "piece of crap" analogy fades away-- Several of my Smiths (all 12 bore) have well over 1000 rds. through them since they came into my possession. I will grant you, the Smith design is complicated, especially their HOT trigger--and re-assemblying one properly is NOT a job for a amatuer-- But they have a balance and feel that surpasses other American double guns- IMO. RWTF
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
Each time you pull the trigger on a 100 year old plus gun you never know when it will blow....
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,199 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,199 Likes: 7 |
....lifting of the primer from the pocket[/b], flattening of the primer against the breech face, and deep striker indentation, especially in comparison to shells of the same batch, as evidence of excessive pressure.... Just on speculation, the primer of the blown shell does not appear any more flattened than the sample fired shell next to it. I think the good fired shell is showing a bit of primer flow around the firing pin, maybe a bit warm anyway for the clearance around that firing pin fit up. The lifted primer and the apparent outward bulge on the primer near the striker indentation may have happened as the headspace started to increase as the chamber failed. I do not believe the primer striker indentation area had more strength than the failed barrel, maybe the rim and primer stopped distorting as the pressure dropped when the chamber failed. I would think the plastic hull sealed the entire chamber, from breech to opened crimp, but the plastic failed as the barrel failed in the same direction as the barrel failed, no plastic flowed back into the defect between the rib and barrel. It tore outward, and the plastic hull does not appear to have burned through and thus reaching the steel to burn it. I still think the dark color is from long term corrosion for two reasons. There is bright metal where the barrel failed away from the rib even though it was exposed to the same conditions as the suspected failure area. And second, it does not appear that the bore cleaner removed the dark coloring as if it were only powder fouling. It's always appeared to me that braze is still bonded to the rib and corrosion ran along the barrel. Only guessing Doc Drew because it is interesting, take care. Agreed. Yours is more detailed description of what I was thinking and said. The discussion as to the primer (viz. the primer bulge happening as the headspace failed) seems fair. But, it does not account for the extractor imprint. Logic tells me that, if there was to be an imprint from the extractor (as there is), then it would have to have happened before headspace failed and before the chamber wall blew out. First, the extractor is not in the region that failed. Second, on the chamber wall blowing out the pressure (necessary to force the shell head into the extractor to cause the imprint) would drop off rapidly. I think this was a hot reload that met up with a chamber with a very weak spot.
fiery, dependable, occasionally transcendent
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,129 Likes: 198
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,129 Likes: 198 |
All factory shells except one reload, and the reload blows the gun to pieces? Too much of a weird coincidence to eliminate the reload as part of the cause. Foxy's comment about not using reloads in old guns is a bit of an overreaction. Many of these guns fired nothing less than 1 1/4 ounce loads from the twenties through the seventies without a problem.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Reloads are all I normally shoot through my 100+-year-old guns. I would not shoot just anyone's reloads, if other than those I have loaded myself I have to know the loader "Extremely" well. Each time you pull the trigger on a 100 year old plus gun you never know when it will blow... I would modify this statement to read; Each time you pull the trigger on any gun you never know when it will blow.. I do not have exact figures but over the years there have been more "Young" guns blown than Old ones. The only way to be absolutely certain a gun never blows up in one's hands is to "Not Pull any Triggers" A step I have never been willing to take. I am far more concerned about my personal safety every time I get in an automobile than when I pick up one of my Twist or Damascus barreled Lefevers or my pre-1900 J P Clabrough Damascus. I do shoot moderate & sensible loads through them, neither max pressure nor those "Ridiculous" Extremely Low-pressure ones. I stay in the 7K-8K range with powders made for that range, the slow progressive powders were not designed for good burniong at low pressures.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,961 Likes: 9
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,961 Likes: 9 |
Drew Mn stringers were not uncommon in the light gauge stainless that we used, .026 to .045. The more you roll the metal the longer and wider they get. The mills could elimenate the Mn but less than .7 percent Mn caused stress cracking. I have had stress cracking cause a forearm iron on a super to break but seldom see anyone mention this problem.
bill
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 369 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 369 Likes: 2 |
It seems odd to have 1 reload in a box/pouch of a factory ammo. Is it 100% certain it's a reload? Normally I shoot either factory or reload- but never mix. Maybe that's just me though
NRA Patron Life Member
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,092 Likes: 13
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,092 Likes: 13 |
Nearby skeet range shoots 2-3 million rounds a year for 45 years. Two guns blow up during this time. Both reloads.
So many guns, so little time!
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,344 Likes: 390
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,344 Likes: 390 |
Has anyone used the word inclusion? I just blued a D Parker that had what I thought was a pit near the muzzle but it turned out to be a flap of metal cause (dirt in the metal) MY industrial experience show a tiny drop of "dirt" can cause a lamination several feet long. bill Yes Bill, I used the word inclusion very early in this "Mountain-Out-Of-A-Molehill" discussion. Based upon the first pictures we saw, I was of the opinion that the burst initiated at the point of the dark spot, where the chamber wall was exceedingly thin, and it also appeared that the braze joint was compromised or defective. This was well before we saw any photo of the rear end of the blown shell. I felt that the dark spot was possibly an inclusion such as rolled-in scale, which unfortunately just happened to be in a spot that was machined very thin during the barrel jointing process. The same sort of inclusion hidden between the ribs and located much further down the barrels might have never been noticed. I was ridiculed by the Preacher for making an observation based upon what was plain to see. And that observation did not include highly unlikely causes such as probable ring bulges, bore obstructions, or a shell that did not fully open at the mouth. Later, when Dewey Vicknair came to very similar conclusions with photos having notations in red, that was perfectly acceptable, and Dewey was not similarly castigated, discredited, or taken to task for making a logical and rational observation based upon the evidence at hand. But don't forget... I'm supposed to be the one with self-loathing, hatred, and acid in my soul... according to the Preacher. I'm still not convinced that this was the result of some extreme overload. But we know that there was enough pressure to finally exploit this thin weak area that appeared to have an inclusion and compromised braze joint. It appears that there was a weak spot present ever since the gun was manufactured, and it quite possibly got worse over time. It takes a LOT of pressure to extrude a primer and get extractor imprints like that. But all bets are off with a shell case that is abruptly unsupported by a chamber that lets loose in those milliseconds when pressures are peaking. Specifically, I'm thinking about a lot of burst steel tubing I saw a number of years ago when I spent a couple days working on a PLC program controlling high pressure pumps on a Hydrotester. Part of the problem was that pressures were unpredictably going way too high and bursting tubes that were not otherwise defective. I got to witness a lot of impressive bursts, and was close enough at times to get drenched when they ruptured. I was very surprised by they way the tubes reacted, even though pretty securely clamped into the machine. There was simply no predicting the result, and the ruptured tubes often twisted and cork-screwed weirdly. Of course Hydrotesting is pressure testing done using water instead of highly compressed air or a gas because a burst involving gas pressure would be much more violent and dangerous. Thin plastic shell bodies and thin brass or brass plated steel shell heads can easily contain normal pressures when they are adequately supported. It's what they are designed to do. Abruptly take away roughly half of that chamber support in a burst like this, and I don't know how anyone can predict exactly how those thin materials would behave. Pretty near impossible to duplicate those same conditions to verify results as well. Wear your shooting glasses. Keep your life insurance premiums paid. Avoid distractions while reloading. And enjoy shooting vintage doubles knowing you have a better chance getting injured or killed on the drive to the skeet range. Because no amount of anal hysteria or careful barrel wall thickness measuring was ever going to predict or prevent this burst... especially when done by someone who actually thought that lengthening chambers would result in GREATER WALL THICKNESS at the ends of the re-cut chambers. And maybe it would be good for the Preacher to take those measuring tools and carefully check himself for thin skin... not that it would help.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,426 Likes: 314
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,426 Likes: 314 |
I'm meeting with a metallurgical engineer at METL Tuesday morning and have 3 specific questions related to Dewey Vicknair's comments 1. Do you agree the dark divot in the middle represents the failure initiation point, and can we now determine if there was a flaw there? 2. Do you agree the braze joint failed? 3. Do you agree the breech end barrel wall metal appears to have been over-heated when brazed? Hopefully a macroscopic examination can help answer those questions, and if so I'll post images. Any other important questions, recognizing that I am paying for the consultation time? re: the issue of the blow-up shell being a reload. The shooter said he was using factory shells, but was saving the empties to reload. I have 7 empty shells and 8 unused shells all with the same primer, and 1 blow-up shell with a different primer. I've contacted him for more information but he has not responded.
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