doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com JABC, I hope not

Franc, at least according to my Belgian date code info, Liege did not start using them until 1922, so there won't be very many of the pre-proof change guns--the ones with the gauge over C in a diamond--that carry a date code.

The ML with the crown is the maker's mark.
From my information:

MANUFACTURE LIEGEOISE D’ARMES À FEU
Rue du Vertbois, 54 à LIEGE
1866-1929

The ECM3 is the 4th proof test. They are testing with smokeless powder, unlike the first 3 tests. There were a number of smokeless powders available on the Belgian market. One of them was M. Some others included L, T, S, etc. Later this powder designation was dropped because of the confusion it caused with hunters. There was also a so-called 5th proof test for a period of time.

Who determined the type (maker) of the powder is unclear. It could have been the Controller of Proof (inspector) or the gun's maker.

The proof pressures would have been around 14,000 psi for a 12 gauge.

A really nice gun at a great price!

Pete

Great find!
Good sample of the pre-war Belgian real pegion gun. Gun is pretty heavy and chambers are 70 mm and it was only on pegion guns at the era.

Geno, your thought makes sense as I wondered about the lenghty inscription on the rib; Manufacture Liegeoise D'Armes A Feu Liege Fondee 1866. Grand Prix Paris 1900. in a separate panel near the breech; Acier Universel. Possible that Grand Prix Paris 1900 was a live pigeon shoot won with a gun made by ML? Jim

I believe they are talking about the 1900 Olympics held in Paris. There was also a Grand Prix race that year. A live pigeon shoot was one of the events. International Clay Pigeon was also introduced that year. Though they could well have been a shooting event attached to the Grand Prix. Eley marketed a line of shotgun shells as the Grand Prix during this period.

It was not uncommon for gun makers to continuously thump their chest after winning an international competition. This often went on for decades. They either won a shoot or were given a prize.

I believe Geno is correct, this was most likely built as a pigeon gun. Which would have been near the top of the market at that time in competition guns. The firm simply did not survive the depression.

Pete

James: A nice gun is a nice gun, unless you got it for a real bargain ... then it's a GREAT gun. You mentioned how the stock extension had been really botched. It's a bit hard to tell from the photo, but it doesn't look all that bad to me. I was once told by someone whose expertise I trusted that there was a time in Europe when they didn't go to great lengths to make wooden butt extensions invisible ... that the market didn't really mind. That said, some cosmetic surgery could make the old girl's butt look very fine indeed! Congrats. TT

TT, actually the butt job was not as bad as I implied, It's just that whoever did it failed to follow the stock line around the sides of the toe area. The dark marking on the 1" extension was fairly well done on a very plain peice of wood that is colored to a good match. The real problem is that the wood with the extension is only 13 7/8, it had a 1" whiteline pad on it that had to go. I am considering a leather coverd pad with a 1/4 spacer or maybe a 1 1/2 Silvers. It is going to sit awhile as I have several other projects in the works right now. Jim

Very nice.The stock looks like it was shortened at one time and the original piece put back, what do you think?
Take Care Pedler

Oops
Did not read second page.
Pedler

Funny you should address your question "JABC, I hope not"...because in fact 99% of all JABC's were produced in or around the Henri Pieper factory, the second largest producer of Belgian firearms. First being FN, and third being Manufacture Liegeoise (ML). ML produced the reciever forgings for 95% of every high grade SxS to have ever been produced in Belgium. Receiver forgings and parts where provided to near every finishing house, Francotte and Lebeau included. ML also produced receivers and part forgings for finishing houses and artisans in Spain, France, and Italy. Rumor has it, that shortly after WWII, Bernadelli bought ML's trip hammers and dies.... ML, like Etab. Pieper, was at the heart of the cottage arms trade that flourished in and around Liege. Unlike Peiper, ML was a public company, like FN (Fabrique National). ML was such a large producer, that they were able to similtaneously produce different lines of SxS's, in order to respond to different fashions in different countries. For example, guns made for export to Italy were often available with a forth fasteners and in higher grades than offered in other countries in that same year. In trying to put ML into perspective, I would guess their SxS production totals would probably exeed that of L C Smith, Parker, and Lefever put together. Not including all the rough forgings they provided to artisans all across Europe. The fact that it's marked ML, gives it sufficient pedigree to prove that it's not even a healthy cousin of all those JABC's, that all got their start in life at Pieper.
I can't see the images so late in this posting, but if you would like more info on your shotgun, you can repost the images, and I will try to post corresponding catalog images and related data.