doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com JABC, I hope not

Here is a new toy I purchased on an online auction in September. Because the seller stated that it wouldn’t cock and the saftey wouldn’t engage, there was little interest in it, price was 450.00 including shipping. Duh someone had installed the locks with the saftey off. Made by the small company of Manufacture Liegeoise D, Armes between 1910 to 1921, as near as I can figure from the proof marks. It is a back-action SLNE with 29 5/8 Cockerill Steel barrels, choked .013 in right and .026 in left. It has 70mm chambers and is nitro proved, weight is 6 ¾ lb. Excellent workmanship, nice engraving and wood, although it has been cosmetically challenged by a recoil pad installer. Someone has tried to extend the stock, but it is a half-ass job. At any rate I thought some of you would enjoy a quality Belgian gun. Jim

Sideclips, cocking indicators, not bad! The sideplates look as if they may contain an intercepting sear as well, no?

Great to see it go to a good home. Use it in good health.
Best,
Ted

That's a nice looking gun and the price should not be mentioned again. I like the rounded top very much. Are those cocking indicators?

Looks like a pretty gun, but never heard of the maker. The lock plate design from the outside reminds me of an early Henry Atkin. I think the model name was called Raliegh or something like that.

Euro trash like that is giving JABC a bad name. Please keep pictures of that type of gun to yourself. Proper disposal should be undertaken at the soonest possible time. If you are unable to dispose of this eye sore forward it to me for proper disposal. I would pay shipping if it makes a hardship on you to send it to me by the weekend.

That is one of the nicer looking "finds" that I have seen lately. It also proves that sellers who do not know how to repair guns should not take them apart. That little bit of home gunsmithing cost him a lot of money. Weither he did it himself or the owner before him did it the result was a good gun made to look like a basket case. His loss and your gain.

For the amount of money you have in it you could afford to have the stock fixed properly and that gun would be a real keeper. If I were you I would get the information about the stock repair man in Northen England from the "Faux grain" post about five days ago and have him fix the stock for you. Some of his work if flawless and a real eye opener. Good find.

Nice find! Congrats!

Where it mine, I would get the screws repaired correctly, do the faux grain thing for the butt extension and then simply enjoy it.

Nice to see a discerning person buying the gun.

Yes........JABC, I'll give you your money back on that junker!
Cheers,

I owned a very nice example of a Manufacture Liegoise 16 gauge hammergun that I acquired from our friend John Mann. The gun was well made, nicely finished and well balanced. It took alot of Nebraska pheasants and quail. I had to sell it to make room for a French gun that I just had to have. For $450 you stole that gun!!!

Best,
Dustin

Neat, high quality 'ML' shotgun from a well known pistolet automatique maker.

The maker was a large firm at turn of the century and made a wide range of guns. The Belgians did not lack skill in gun making, more of a lack in marketing to the USA. They could, and did, build best quality guns.

ML seems to me to price out as Brand Value level four (BV4), lessor known and valued brand name. A pristine example of their best original quality grade SLE would go for about $10,000. This gun appears to be an Original Quality grade four (OQ4) based on the amount and quality of engraving and the grade of wood to off-set the lack of ejectors, the back action locks, and slightly dated (flat back)action styling. The current condition seems to fit to "heavy use, but no abuse", which is Current Condition level four. The screw heads are an alarm bell, but the barrels are described as good and the pictures don't indicate a beat-up gun. So, BV4-OQ4-CC4 = $1600. 28% of likely retail generally is associated with the word "bargain." If I were off by a full OQ grade and a full CC level, BV4-OQ5-CC5 = $900, it would still be half price. Nice buy!!

Manufacture Leigeoise d'Armes a Feu--sounds much more prestigious than the English translation "Liege Firearms Factory"--but as noted above, they made some pretty nice guns, like yours. Too bad someone messed with the screws, but otherwise it looks pretty darned good.

If you're correct on the date of production, the appropriate proofmark would be 12 over a C (assume it's a 12 gauge) inside a diamond. If it's a somewhat later gun (post-1924), it would be marked 12-70 inside a sort of capital C. I'm thinking maybe a later gun, because it's a bit unusual to find earlier Belgies with 2 3/4" chambers (unless they've been lengthened).

Should have included photo off proof marks in original post; note the 12/C in a diamond, bore and choke as a fraction, no date code, chambers are marked on barrel 70/20.6. It has the normal lion over PV nitro proofs, plus a lion over ECm3, my info shows the EC mark but not the m3, anyone know what it means? I plan to take care of the stock problem , clean up the screw heads and have the barrels re-blacked. The action was originally case colored but it looks OK with honest wear, probably best to leave as is. Jim

The use of the word "steel" probably indicates export to USA.

Beginning about 1892 it became a requirement for the chamber dimensions & weight of bbls to be marked on all guns receiving the optional Nitro Proof. As you stated the 70 is for 2 3/4" shells & the 20.6 (.811") is the dia just ahead of the rim seat in MM. You appear to have a good grasp on Belgian proofs & probably already knew this, but thought I would throw this in for those who perhaps do not.

Jim, looks like you've got that gun pretty well figured out. My proof references don't show anything on the m3 either, but in view of its proximity to the EC mark, I'd guess it may refer to a more specific variety of the bulk smokeless powder EC--although that's only a guess.

In Wirnsberger's Standard directory of proof marks on page 123 he lists several powders said to be suitable for use in semi-smokeless proof which could be specified by the applicant. Among these under British powders is listed EC3 with the 3 being writen as an exponent. I think Larry has nailed this mark as being a specific lot/type of EC powder, even though the M is not shown in this reference.

Dustins Manufacture Liegoise 16 gauge hammergun





Dustins gun and my Francotte.

James1..Wow , lovely Gun..i'm partial to nice Belgan guns
Fair play to you for taking a chance on a verry pretty but seemingly "internaly Challenged " Gun
You must have whooped n hollared up a storm when you figured it out & got her working.
Thats a very handsome Gun mate..
Is there by any chance any stamping on the under rib mentioning HY Andrews, Sheffield, England?
I have a nice Belgan SLE, the lockes have the "Britte"Co mark inside & have the Andrews marks mentioned above.I have heard of other nice Belg guns with Andrews BBLs.
Is there no script type letter like e for the date code on the bbl flats?
shoot her in good health....what a bloody good price eh?
cheers
Franc

Franc, I checked the under rib, nothing there but the normal belgian marks, and ML trade marks. Mo date code on the flats but there is an asterick without any letter plus the regular inspectors marks. I had a pretty good idea what the trigger problems were as the sellers photos showed the triggers in a odd position. There is a lot of quality Belgian and French guns out there if you keep your eyes open, a lot of clunkers too.

Franc, at least according to my Belgian date code info, Liege did not start using them until 1922, so there won't be very many of the pre-proof change guns--the ones with the gauge over C in a diamond--that carry a date code.

The ML with the crown is the maker's mark.
From my information:

MANUFACTURE LIEGEOISE D’ARMES À FEU
Rue du Vertbois, 54 à LIEGE
1866-1929

The ECM3 is the 4th proof test. They are testing with smokeless powder, unlike the first 3 tests. There were a number of smokeless powders available on the Belgian market. One of them was M. Some others included L, T, S, etc. Later this powder designation was dropped because of the confusion it caused with hunters. There was also a so-called 5th proof test for a period of time.

Who determined the type (maker) of the powder is unclear. It could have been the Controller of Proof (inspector) or the gun's maker.

The proof pressures would have been around 14,000 psi for a 12 gauge.

A really nice gun at a great price!

Pete

Great find!
Good sample of the pre-war Belgian real pegion gun. Gun is pretty heavy and chambers are 70 mm and it was only on pegion guns at the era.

Geno, your thought makes sense as I wondered about the lenghty inscription on the rib; Manufacture Liegeoise D'Armes A Feu Liege Fondee 1866. Grand Prix Paris 1900. in a separate panel near the breech; Acier Universel. Possible that Grand Prix Paris 1900 was a live pigeon shoot won with a gun made by ML? Jim

I believe they are talking about the 1900 Olympics held in Paris. There was also a Grand Prix race that year. A live pigeon shoot was one of the events. International Clay Pigeon was also introduced that year. Though they could well have been a shooting event attached to the Grand Prix. Eley marketed a line of shotgun shells as the Grand Prix during this period.

It was not uncommon for gun makers to continuously thump their chest after winning an international competition. This often went on for decades. They either won a shoot or were given a prize.

I believe Geno is correct, this was most likely built as a pigeon gun. Which would have been near the top of the market at that time in competition guns. The firm simply did not survive the depression.

Pete

James: A nice gun is a nice gun, unless you got it for a real bargain ... then it's a GREAT gun. You mentioned how the stock extension had been really botched. It's a bit hard to tell from the photo, but it doesn't look all that bad to me. I was once told by someone whose expertise I trusted that there was a time in Europe when they didn't go to great lengths to make wooden butt extensions invisible ... that the market didn't really mind. That said, some cosmetic surgery could make the old girl's butt look very fine indeed! Congrats. TT

TT, actually the butt job was not as bad as I implied, It's just that whoever did it failed to follow the stock line around the sides of the toe area. The dark marking on the 1" extension was fairly well done on a very plain peice of wood that is colored to a good match. The real problem is that the wood with the extension is only 13 7/8, it had a 1" whiteline pad on it that had to go. I am considering a leather coverd pad with a 1/4 spacer or maybe a 1 1/2 Silvers. It is going to sit awhile as I have several other projects in the works right now. Jim

Very nice.The stock looks like it was shortened at one time and the original piece put back, what do you think?
Take Care Pedler

Oops
Did not read second page.
Pedler

Funny you should address your question "JABC, I hope not"...because in fact 99% of all JABC's were produced in or around the Henri Pieper factory, the second largest producer of Belgian firearms. First being FN, and third being Manufacture Liegeoise (ML). ML produced the reciever forgings for 95% of every high grade SxS to have ever been produced in Belgium. Receiver forgings and parts where provided to near every finishing house, Francotte and Lebeau included. ML also produced receivers and part forgings for finishing houses and artisans in Spain, France, and Italy. Rumor has it, that shortly after WWII, Bernadelli bought ML's trip hammers and dies.... ML, like Etab. Pieper, was at the heart of the cottage arms trade that flourished in and around Liege. Unlike Peiper, ML was a public company, like FN (Fabrique National). ML was such a large producer, that they were able to similtaneously produce different lines of SxS's, in order to respond to different fashions in different countries. For example, guns made for export to Italy were often available with a forth fasteners and in higher grades than offered in other countries in that same year. In trying to put ML into perspective, I would guess their SxS production totals would probably exeed that of L C Smith, Parker, and Lefever put together. Not including all the rough forgings they provided to artisans all across Europe. The fact that it's marked ML, gives it sufficient pedigree to prove that it's not even a healthy cousin of all those JABC's, that all got their start in life at Pieper.
I can't see the images so late in this posting, but if you would like more info on your shotgun, you can repost the images, and I will try to post corresponding catalog images and related data.

Yep, the Pieper produced guns are all junk. What ever you do, do not buy one! The second largest producer was at the heart of the cottage arms trade?

28 Gauge


10 Gauge


12 Gauge


Pete

You are correct, did you notice that I didn't say 100%...whenever Pieper affixed their name, it would seem that you have something good...are you denying that Pieper made all those Belgian W. Richards, T Barkers, J Mantons, or EVERY other JABC that you have EVER seen? I didn't think so...Except for the ocassional S J & D, the firm of Etablishments Pieper is responsable for all JABC...Now I do like Pieper marked guns, but all those un-heat-treated POS's that Pieper FLOODED the American market with, have given Pieper a bad reputation that they will never out grow among double collectors. The same goes for SJ&D, even though Dumoulin and Jennsen ocassionaly made top grade doubles. I've not seen a Simonis marked double yet, but I would guess they're a quality made item. Besides, didn't SJ&D get the bulk of their recievers from Pieper. Unlike Masquelier, Saive, Bodson, Thirifays, Francotte, Theatre, ML, Scholberg, Deforney, and Breakers, even if you have a good Pieper, how many collectors are clamoring to buy them? Go to La Maisson and see how many Piepers they are selling (none). Notice how 3 out of 4 of what is listed, is Artisinal Liegeoise (ML). There are many exceptions to what I'm saying here, none of which absolves Pieper of the many thousands of un heat treated junkers that Pieper routinely turned out. In fact the thinking is so widespread, rarely will you find Pieper in any price value guides, most Piepers are so soft that most collectors don't even consider them real firearms. 400 rounds into the life of the gun, those Richards (by Pieper)are so loose, that you can keep the gun straight ahead, and if the rabbit flushes left, you need only wiggle the bbls to the left...95% of all Piepers are junk, and you know it.

Yes, that's correct, Pieper and ML where the heart of the Liege cottage trade. Who else was mass producing SxS receives in Liege? Rarely did FN participate in the cottage trade. Do you have evidence of otherwise? If so, this is exactly the place to further everyones collective understanding of the Liege gun trade. In fact I would be suprized to find out that Pieper didn't make the receivers for a lot of the junkers that are often found with Birmingham proofs as well.