doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com London vs Birmingham engraving

In my opinion.... W&C Scott and W.W. Greener employed the best engravers of the era. Joe Brown, Walter Howe and Harry Tomlinson�s finest work was in a class of its own. The well known �house� engravers that the posh London makers frequently used were to me....one trick ponies.

Toby;
That is a magnificent example of work of a true artist engraver from the Kell shop. Significant French engraving school style influence.

Indeed Toby, I could look at that gun for hours.
Reminds me of Belgian engraving, which turns me on most...lovely stuff
Franc

Lovely to get such appreciative comments on my new toy. The gun dates from 1913 as can be seen from the Roman numerals on the triggerguard bow. They seem to have given up the Kell engraving by the 1st WW.
Here are a couple of other views.

[img:left]https://scontent.fltn2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v...amp;oe=5D9C33E1[/img]

[img:left]https://scontent.fltn2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v...amp;oe=5D90213B[/img]

[img:left]https://scontent.fltn2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v...amp;oe=5D84C014[/img]

And here is a photo of the 1910 bar action version which sadly I don't own:

Toby the filing on your round body Blanch is superb. I prefer it to the bar action.

This is an old set of posts, but it seems to relate to my Edwin Smith gun and Henry [Harry] Morris . Both Edwin Smith and Mr. Morris had their shops tucked into a rear location of St. Mary's Row in Birmingham. An internet search seems to match the style used by Mr. Morris and the scenes on the Edwin Smith gun. Other names found nearby at this location and similarly engraved were a Bissell gun, G. E. Lewis and Sons, and one marked with Henry Morris' name. The Greener office was just next door.











This photo is curtesy of Roy Smith, who took the photo in 1978. St. Mary's street is the location.

I would love to see that Blanch engraving, but I cannot get them to open.

Great looking gun,Daryl

A little known or largely forgotten Birmingham engraver Henry Morris has been overlooked . Morris finished guns that bore his name as well as engraving for both London and Birmingham trades .
He was apprenticed to either Webley or W&C Scott shortly prior to their amalgamation .He served in WW1 and after set up an engraving shop with I'm told places for 10 engravers .He empolyed as well as taking on apprentices .His last apprentice being taken on in 1959.
He was according to his last apprentice another largely " unknown" man of great skill IMO ,whom I have been asked not to name , told me he was very inventive and established several patterns that became fairly standard .He also did game scenes with very fine detailed work .
He was working certainly into the 1970's .
Boothroyd was I understand a friend and was planning to write a book about him , but this sadly never came to pass .

Truly excellent comments from Bushvelt and Toby. In reference to Steve Nash's original comment, here is the evolution of Reilly engraving which might be relevant - this from the Reilly history. It is reposted here because I can't find another example of comparative engraving from one maker over the course of 60 years:

*38 1820-1900: Reilly Engraving

Reilly engraving evolved over the years and understanding its evolution may be helpful in dating guns. (Disclaimer: this is a cursory analysis of the engraving found on extant Reilly long-guns):

-- In the 1820’s-1830’s Reilly engraving was mostly simple “vine and scroll” patterns used by many gun makers at the time.*38a



-- By the early 1840’s and continuing into the 1950’s the motifs had advanced to a “large scroll” or “English scroll” design.*38b.



There may be more complex engraving during this time period on guns which no longer exist. For instance the company showed examples of embossing and chasing at the 1851 Crystal Palace world’s fair.*38c

Throughout the 1850’s and much of the 1860’s, the engraving continued to echo the above “simple vine and scroll” and “English Scroll” work although becoming more complex. Reilly built guns for Rajah’s and royalty during this period which were obviously higher grades but his bread and butter clientele were the mid-level army officers and lower-level country gentlemen. He did not choose to compete head-to-head for the high-end market with extremely ornate engravings, at least from the extent guns available today.*38d



-- Beginning in the mid-1860’s he began to used increasingly intricate and delicate “rose and scroll” patterns. He abandoned depictions of wildlife.*38e



-- And by the 1880’s and 1890’s his tight “rose and scroll” engravings were tasteful and pleasing and pretty ubiquitous although he also advertised plain-Jane “keepers guns." *38f



There are guns with wildlife scenes engraved on them, mostly from the muzzle-loading period. Some of this engraving is quite realistic. however, many of the depictions of birds and animals on Reilly engravings are cartoonish.*38g Some experienced London gunsmiths (David Trevallion among them) have said that many of the engravers in London at the time had never seen a wild deer, partridge or duck in their lives and drew from impressions or from others’ sketches. Whatever, it appears Reilly did not specialize in fine depictures of wild-life. This was left to other, higher-end makers.



Most London gun-makers during the 1860’s used outworker trade engravers. However, because Reilly was engraving about everything he sold at the time, retailed pistols, retailed long-guns, bayonets, knives, etc. - it is possible that he had an in-house engraving capability. This would have enabled him to meet orders twice as fast as other gun-makers and perhaps reduce costs.