doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com British case colors

Many of us understand that the colors vary from brand to brand in vintage American guns. But, I don't believe I have ever heard it addressed as to whether this is the case with British vintage guns, from name to name, to the extent of American. I have most often seen it said, when referencing the subject, "British colours", as if there were more uniformity in them, from name to name, than in American guns.

Would someone knowledgeable about this please offer their opinions, experiences?

Thanks, SRH

St. Ledgers did many of them. Very consistent and understated.

Best,
Ted

I believe outworkers in Birmingham did most of it for the trade. Therefore I would think there was a real similarity among many �makers�. Larger true makers, such as Webley & Scott, Greener, Westley Richards probably did it in house. But I am only guessing.

As I understand it, Richard, Ray's son, is still running the business.

Are you saying that they were/are more uniform from name to name than American names, which were all over the color spectrum in diversity?

SRH

Yes. That is what they do, and they watch the quality, and are meticulous in the prep.

Best,
Ted

Their work is always sublime.
Part of their secret is their shielding.
They put it where they want it.

I am amazed at how they are able to surround a bulino scene with a halo of blue.

The guys in Germany are a little too vibrant for me. But I wouldn't refuse a Peter Hofer Magazine rifle.

Most British guns I�ve seen the colors have been worn, would anyone be willing to post a few examples?

I'd like to include today's production of British doubles in this discussion .......... not just vintage guns. Does St. Ledger do most of the case-hardening today, or do some of the makers do their own, and more importantly, if they do are they consistent with what is done by the outworker shops like St. Ledger?

SRH

Drew, the piece by Tate is excellent. I very much enjoyed and learned from it.

Thanks, SRH

Stan, there is a decent article on the website. https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine

Lots of interesting things to read there. Talks about renewing case colors and does explain traditional original colors tended to be dark but with not the vivid colors we often see today. I think the best case color people can give you what ever you want and the average will give you what ever comes out on the other end.

Excellent article Jon. The above quote pretty well sums up my stand on "Re-Coloring" guns. I don't have mine re-colored.

I rarely have a gun re-colored for colors alone. Usually restoration work such as repairing damage or picking up engraving is done which requires re-hardening.

Interesting colors on the AA Brown gun. I found what they said about plates to evenly distribute colors interesting.

In my youth I did have several guns recolored when redoing them. I doubt I would these days unless it was a total upgrade complete with reshaping the metal and engraving. Even then I might go more for a French Grey finish. Classic guns like a nice double have the right to look a little old and well used.

I had a Holland and Holland 8 BORE double rifle recolor hardened after some pitting was removed and engraving recut. The action came back with a small crack in the front slot where the front barrel lug went in. The hardener (who I will not name) welded the crack and recolored. Second time it came out fine. It seems the larger the action the more chance of it becoming warped. When having a rifle color hardened in the USA you get what you get. Some reds and oranges sometimes that aren't on English hardened guns.

Miss Martin, our art teacher, lectured us on discordant colour matches, and blue with brown was on top of the list. Those are the colours most often seen side in case colour hardening. It is a mystery to me how people can find the combination alluring!

Now when the colours fade, and they leave behind that soft grey, now that is worth having! Why anyone would want to lose that soft grey by rehardening is another mystery!

Scroll down to a .410 Westley Richards that was recolored. Unfortunately the author did not document the craftsman who did the work
https://www.theexplora.com/page/27/

That .410 Drop Lock looks beautiful.
I need to get my furnace set up so that I can work on colors.
I'm excited for winter!

You and me both, Tinker. My furnace, charcoal, and crucible have been sitting in my shop for several years ........... and I've never gotten around to it. It's high time for it to be used.

SRH

A few pictures of my vintage Birmingham Clabrough and Johnstone trade shotgun, built circa 1925, which still has it's original vivid case colors. I'm likely the third owner as far as I know. It was purchased by me from an Estate sale. The owner's son said it was purchased by his father in the 1950's and then basically sat in the back of a closet until I purchased it 40 years later. Obviously someone else must have owned it between circa 1925-1950's again with very little usage.






________

TC

Tim, that is a great looking old gun. I am always amazed when someone comes across a closet queen like that one. It provides a good guide to modern restorers as to just what they are trying to accomplish...Geo

Indeed a great looking old Clabrough. My Clabrough is marked J P Clabrough & Bros & is from the 1890s @ SN 4230. It has 28" Damascus barrels, � choke in both barrels. It has 2 5/8" chambers & a Doll's Head rather than a Cross Bolt. Hardly any finish left, either case colors or bluing, but with low pressure 1 oz loads it is one fine quail, woodcock etc gun.

I have seen some of the history of these guns but forget now just when Johnson became a part of the company. As I recall he was the US importer in California.

�Johnstone�, since we are on typos today.

Best,
Ted

In Lawrence P. Shelton's book,� J.P. Clabrough Birmingham Gunmaker� it states that, "Douglas Vaughan Johnstone owned the Clabrough Company in England from 1892 to 1918."

Interestingly, big changes came in 1914 for Clabrough & Johnstone. Specifically, in 1911 the gun-making firms of Isaac Hollis & Son and Bentley and Playfair had amalgamated and following in 1914 Clabrough & Johnstone also amalgamated into the same group, all of which were headed up by Douglas V. Johnstone. From 1914 on-wards, they shared the same premises and workmen in Birmingham. So my Clabrough & Johnstone shotgun would have likely been built in 1925 by the Hollis, Bentley and Playfair firm, even though it's branded Clabrough & Johnstone.

The book also states that Douglas V. Johnstone did have a son named Philip Douglas Johnstone who immigrated to the U.S.A. in 1925, being listed as a gun-maker; he apparently worked for Griffin and Howe in New York City, and died in 1989.

Edit: See the attached article J.P. Clabrough, and the California connection.

J.P. Clabrough Article

That Westley .410 ( to me, anyway) has the most beautiful combination of engraving and case colors that I have ever seen. Subtle soft colors blending with the engraving. Some of the stuff I have seen recently are way too bright and gaudy. Rather like the fellow in the article describes as someone using glossy paint.

Thanks George.

My good friend the late Tony Treadwell goes into his experiments with case colouring in his excellant book An English Gunmaking Heritage.

Tony Treadwell's chapter on re case hardening of shotgun frames is the best description of the process that i have ever read...

he is certainly missed here...

There is a video on AA Brown's site here https://losgi.com/aabrown-sons-79774-5?f...Gdl33M_LZEPXX9k

Video is towards the bottom of the page

JohnfromUK, thank you for the link to that video. I am amazed that, the more I read and watch about charcoal pack casehardening, the less consistent it seems to be from one shop to another.

From Oscar Gaddy's techniques to this at AA Brown I notice that there is a difference in the granulation size of the charcoal. I notice that there is no effort to make a nearly airtight lid-to-crucible seal at AA Brown. There is little effort to prevent oxygen from entering the "pot", as Brown calls it. Indeed, the lid is removed long before the crucible/pot is even removed from the oven. Oscar made every effort to keep the lid on the container until submersion in the water, wanting it to happen mere inches away from the surface. There is no blocking, or bracing of parts being casehardened, at Brown. Gaddy was adamant that it helped to prevent warpage, yet Brown had no warpage at all, in the video.

Having had all the necessary tools to do casehardening of parts and actions, I have been gathering as much information as possible for at least 10 years. It seems that the more I learn the less I know.

SRH

A little OT, but Krieghoff charges a smooth $4k upcharge for case colored receivers on their K80 clays gun.
JR

Wow! $4K.

SRH

What about the Italians? I�ve seen Perazzis with cyanide colors and I�ve also seen what looks to be bone charcoal colors. Anyone have an idea who does this for them?

You noticed the same things I noticed in the A.A. Brown video. I want to try that larger granulation of charcoal. I would also like to know the wood/bone ratio.

Thanks also for the case hardening link. I thought the wiring of a few of the parts is interesting. It appears to be copper wire. Seems okay to touch parts, and there's good water out of the tap, deceptively easy? Good stuff.

According to an Ithaca Service Manual form the 1980s, the Perazzis which they imported back then were built with heat-treated allow steels, unsuitable for case hardening. They were given a "FAUX" case coloring by chemicals. This involved heating the part to around 200� F & then daubing or striping it with Cold Blue. I'd sure hate to pay $4K for that though. One can do a batch of them, themselves for the price of a bottle of Cold Blue.

and then there is this...

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/the-case-against-new-colours

Ed, just imagine what the author of that article would have to say about the grotesque psychedelic flame-broiled torch colors that you and old Ed Lander foisted upon uneducated gun buyers. I think he'd most likely vomit on your torched beauties if he ever held one... and that would be an improvement.

keet: the vitriolic bile you spew here often approaches a form of perverted poetry...

Your link is about appearances. Do you have any expert opinion links discussing the aesthetics of torch applied colors?

"Restoration is hard to get right. In my opinion, it should be subtle. New case colours just don�t have that essential subtlety."

Wonder what he�d say about the burnt circles we saw on your wares.


Best,
Ted

______________________________
Propane or acetylene, that is the question.

And, you think frog-eye torch colors are subtle? Or, are you somehow reticent now? Your and Ed Lander's torch colors are about as subtle as a flying brick.

SRH

used doublegun buyer preferences and markets change...

the recoloring of shotgun action parts now seems to be out of fashion, regardless of the methodology utilized...

Ed you might as well be arguing with two senile rocks...