doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Matched pair but a 16 gauge and a 12 gauge?

I've e-mailed Amoskeag asking them to forward my email address to the person who bought Terry's 12 bore.

I've never found a Reilly pair without consecutive serial numbers. That said, there are only a few extant Reilly pairs though there are references to others.

This pair did not sell - SN 30375, 30376:


Terry Buffum"s 34221, 34222


The description, and pictures of the two - the 16 bore 27853 and the 12 bore 27854 are so similar that one must assume they went together - perhaps a husband wife team?

"1" from 27853: Note the "round flower panel on top of action." Note the "engraved" "1" inside the fore arm...see below


No picture of the "2" on 27854 but the description is identical:
serial #27854, 12 ga., 30" barrels with bright excellent bores choked full and full. This shotgun is built on a W. & C. Scott crystal indicator action with side clips and with each lock being engraved "E.M. REILLY & CO. / LONDON". The markings on the tops of the barrel are difficult to read but appear to be the E.M. Reilly & Company name and London address on the left barrel and a Paris address on the right barrel. The shotgun was part of a set and is numbered "2" in gold on dolls head rib extension and engraved on interior forend metal. The barrels are Birmingham nitro proofed for 2 3/4" shells with 1 1/16 oz. loads. The minimum wall thickness is generally .0245 with one small area that gets to .023. The action and locks show near full coverage tight English scroll engraving with a nice round flower panel on top of action. The barrels retain about 95% evenly thinning restored blue finish overall. The action and locks show an even gray patina and remain very smooth and free of pitting. The checkered straight grip walnut buttstock and splinter forend rate very good plus as refinished long ago. The gun features a 14 5/8" length of pull over checkered butt and shows drops of 1 1/2" and 2 3/8". The gun locks up tight and points beautifully. A neat crystal indicator sidelever Reilly Ejectorgun. (17147-176) {C&R} [Terry Buffum Collection](1500/2500)

Unfortunately the weight of Terry's 12 bore 27854 is not mentioned in the ad, but I would bet it were 7 lbs 8 oz - the Hurlingham maximum pigeon gun weight adopted for the 1883 season.

There is one interesting hint on the 16 bore 27853; this cartouche is on the lower part of the stock. It appears to be a crest with a woman on it above a crown. One wonders if perhaps the 16 bore was indeed used by the wife?



It looks a lot like a variant of the Clan Urquhart badge:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Urquhart

I like the Clan Urquhart Badge, and agree that's what's on the escutcheon...Geo

Super cool stuff!

Totally.


________________________
Wu-Tang Clan

I bet it costs extra for those buggered out of time screws.

I'm wondering if by about 1881 Reilly didn't start sub-contracting for barrels and actions and finishing them in house. In 1881 his military sales revenue streams from Green Bros, Comblain, etc., and possibly his cutlery business (bayonets, etc.) had dried up (though he was still equipping the Yoemanry militia). He was now bringing in guns in pieces from Liege and assembling them. But something led him to begin selling off the rack about 1881...and he jumped his serial numbered production up from about 650 a year where it had been for 15 years...to over 1,000 a year - 3 a day. The Scott actions, Whitworth barrels, coupled with very traditional Reilly stocks and engraving on 27853 and 27854 might be an indicator.

By the way, after reading the motto for Clan Urquhart, pretty sure Frank is not one of them.

Here was the source of the confusion over the Serial Number. 27553 stamped on the water table. 27853 on the barrels...and on the extension behind the trigger guard (you can see the beginning of a 5" there). The SN on the forearm is unclear because the middle number is obscured by a brad: This is not the first time I've seen confusion over contradictory stamps on Reilly....SN 19286 being another (see Reilly line for a post and comment):

Does not the serial number on the action take precedence over any other ?

According to firearms registration here in Australia it does.

The trigger guard & barrels can be swapped but not the action as it is the basis of the gun.

O.M

Moses....good point and I really don't know. But I've seen some strange stuff on Reilly's....here is the post on 19286 where the board sort of decided the numbers on the action applied sort of reinforced by the trigger guard attenuated number (and to my mind the "8" on the action looks cramped and strange)....as opposed to the numbers on the barrels and forearm. Whatever...I'm going with the 27853....majority vote. If I can find 27854 and it has an engraved escutcheon..QED.

===================================Text from the Reilly Line=================================
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=13

Quote: The chat analysis...posted below...while confused like everybody who writes about Reilly by someone's claim (possible Brown?) that Reilly closed rue Scribe in 1872 and reopened it in 1884...results in a spot on conclusion - late 1874 or early 1875. I'll post the conversation here and photos because this is in a way some validation of the dating method and indicates the model is pretty darn accurate.

https://www.internetgunclub.com/archived-forum/posts.php?topicid=1344

I am a new member to this excellent forum and would value some assistance on the aforementioned gun. A little bit of current information;

- 10 bore hammergun, rebounding hammers, breech face in good condition with no pitting; some relatively basic scroll engraving. Table reads "H Walker's 1098 Patent"
- 30 inch Damascus barrels, excellent condition with v minor exterior pitting in some areas. Game/concave rib, wedge and escutcheon fore-end; recently nitro-proofed
- Semi pistol grip stock with original heel plate; some minor marking and one small (1cm) chip out of stock close to action.

Confusingly, the gun has a slight difference in serial numbers; the table reads 19286, the barrels and foreend 19206, the trigger guard 1928 � could the table be a mistaken number? Any help on assessing what the proof marks mean would be most helpful!

Guidance on history, originality and possible value would be greatly appreciated. I would like to use the gun ongoing for �fowling so am genuinely keen to find out more. A brief review of the history of Reilly could indicate manufacture between 1869-1872 (due to Paris address), but happy to be proven wrong here.

++++++++++++++response from �Tiger� (hope Lagopus or some of the other UK members known him - the response is excellent)++++++++++++++++++

As far as we know, the Reillys, like most gunmakers, bought the various components and assembled them, or bought almost complete guns "in-the-white", stocked and finished them, and put their name on them. Although this gun has London proof marks, all of it is likely to have been made in Birmingham. Nothing wrong with that, good servicable weapons of better quality than anywhere else in the world for the price. The "Best" quality in a London gun came mainly from the final finishing which added a little to reliability and "feel" but most to beauty / elegance and pride of ownership.

Your gun was a nominal 10 bore but actually measured 11 bore. Lovely damascus barrels bearing the crown over V London View Mark (1637-1954) for preliminary inspection, the crown over bar over GP Provisional Proof Mark (1813-date) to reveal faults before any expensive work was done on the barrels, and the crown over GP London Definitive Proof Mark (1637 to date), all these adding up to Black Powder Proof. The barrel flats have two of these original marks as expected.

The action flats have the expected View mark, and they have the H Walker patent mark for his barrel bolting and safety for drop-down actions patent No 455 of 12 February 1872 ( Use No. 1098 ) .

Of equal importance to the marks are the ones that don't appear e.g. no NOT FOR BALL or CHOKE mark (so see what patterns it throws with various cartridges). The first of these was introduced in 1875, so this and the patent date mean the gun was made definitely not before Feb 72, or after 1875.

It must have been made a couple of years after 1872, say 1874 to early 1875, and we favour the latter because even if the gun was made by a large trade maker, the 1098 use number is quite a large number. You will have noted that neither we nor anyone else really know when the Paris shop closed, we only think it was shortly after 1872.

The gun was re-proved after 2005, we can't read the crossed swords date code and confess to not having the key to these recent codes! The two crowns over SUP are for the Superior Proof Mark for 1200 Bars, 10x76 is 10 bore 76mm chambers; 19.4 is the barrel diameter and crown over BNP is the Birmingham Nitro Proof Mark. Crown over R is the re-proof mark - why it is deemed necessary we don't know!

We think you can take it that the serial number is 19286 and that the engraver was an old man with poor eyesight and and a bad memory. Unlike the other gun we mentioned, we don't think this gun is made up of muddled parts!

I would be interested to know then, if serial No 27554 is a 16g No2 of a matched pair.
After all, a matched pair is a matched pair.
Is it not ?

O.M

True...of course. The problem being that there are no Reilly records. Everything on the Reilly line I've compiled from extant Reilly's and often auction houses don't bother to photograph the important bits of a gun. There are only about 310 plus serial numbered extant Reilly's I've found out of over 33,000+ he numbered plus about 40 guns that Reilly probably built but whose serial numbers were not mentioned in the advertisements. There is little chance that 27554 or 27853 (if that gun is not the above gun) can be found. The list and description of the extant Reilly's is here:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=33

And by the way, I have pictures of them all.

But, you never know...maybe something will turn up. The best hope of confirmation, I would think, would be Terry Buffum's former 27854 and the possibility of an engraved escutcheon. That gun exists and is in the USA.

And Reilly was always a businessman...if someone wanted a "matched pair" 12, 16.....or a threesome...he'd do it. So I'm not sure if there is a real definition of "matched pair" especially since all we have to go on is a "1" and a "2." (I am hoping this is a "matched 4"....with a 28 bore and and 20 gauge to go along with the other two).