doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com When do you not need an FFL?

Was curious to see what year a guns manufacturing precludes the need for a FFL? Would a sleeved reproofed gun change this?

Pre-1899 guns need to be transferred via an FFL, and entered into the FFL's Bound Ledger Book. A firearm of 1898 manufacture and before is considered to be an Antique, and can be sold or transferred without an FFL transfer, except in some Liberal Left Democrat controlled areas or states.

The part that matters to the BATF is the date of manufacture of the action or receiver. Sleeving or replacing barrels on a pre-1899 action or receiver does not change its' status as an Antique gun.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/laws-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives

So if a gun built up in the white and sold in June 1888 to the retailer would this be an antique and no FFL necessary?

That is correct.

See paragraph 16 here for the definition of an Antique Firearm:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/pdf/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44.pdf

Unfortunately, many FFL's have trouble understanding this, or are just too lazy to learn. So even when their states and localities do not have requirements stricter than Federal law, they still may refuse to sell or transfer an Antique without doing a transfer. Technically, this is wrong because pre-1899 Antique firearms are not supposed to be entered in the Bound Ledger Book.

Keith;
I don't want to sound too picky but don't want anyone getting confused either. That should read;
"Post-1898 guns need to be transferred via an FFL, and entered into the FFL's Bound Ledger Book." 1898 guns have to be entered, 1898 ones do not.

Further clarification required.

1899 guns have to be entered, 1898 ones do not.

All the clarification in the world wouldn't help the Libtards and FUDD's we have here. They actually support and vote for the Liberal Left anti-gun Democrats who passed the Gun Control Act of 1968, and virtually all other local, State, and Federal restrictions imposed upon law abiding gun owners. They are working as we speak, to impose many more restrictions... including bans on scoped bolt action rifles such as the gun rocky mtn bill used to shoot his elk and deer. Of course, the same Liberal Left Democrats also managed to dramatically reduce the number of licensed FFL's in the U.S. when Democrat Bill Clinton was in the White House sexually abusing impressionable young female interns with cigars. Naturally, this made doing a post-1898 firearm transfer more difficult, and often more costly.

That needed to be said too... for clarification.

It's importsnt to note, too, that some states have laws which go well beyond BATF.

The People's Republic of New York, for instance, considers a gun to be an antique only if it fires ammunition which is not currently produced.

Thus is, of course, ridiculous, because it means a 12 ga shotgun made in 1878, is not an antique, but a rifle made in 1928 chambered for .256 Newton, is an antique.

Like almost all gun laws everywhere, NY's are rife with illogical contradictions, and none of it does anything to make anyone "safer."

I tell anyone I ever get into a conversation about it, that the most dangerous thing I do in my life...by FAR...is running my chainsaws. But it would be SO MUCH SAFER to run them if only there was a warning written on the bar, explaining how sharpened chains spinning at high velocity can actually be dangerous.

Where is this critical legislation?!?!

Nudge

I just had an ATF inspection and the agent stated that pre 1899 guns do not need to go into the record book...AS LONG AS...they have not been altered, such as new wood, finish, etc. YMMV.

I'm pretty familiar with an example where a seller knew an FFL transfer was not required, but they insisted it was shipped to a dealer. On the receiving end, in a different state, the dealer just handed it over. If it's interesting enough, it's okay to jump through some hoops, but most times I'd just move on and not give it a second thought.

This is proof that even some BATF Agents do not understand the law. The law is the law. It is passed by Congress, and signed into law by the President. The law is printed word for word in the Congressional Record. Terms such as "Antique Firearm" are specifically defined. You will not find anyplace within the law that states what this misinformed agent told you.

But if this was indeed true, it would certainly add great importance to maintaining and confirming original finish... as if that would even be possible.

By the way, did this agent happen to photograph your Bound Ledger Books while he was conducting his inspection? I'm just curious about how prevalent that particular illegal behavior might be.

The 256 Newton rifle is a Modern firearm in NYS and should be transfered on a 4473/NiCS.
CAliber has nothing to do with it.
NYS followes Fed regs and deffinitions when dealing with Long guns

A pre 1899 12ga shotgun in NYS is recognized as an 'Antique Status' firearm under Fed Regs. and does not need to be transfered with a 4473/Nics (though most FFL will require that paperwork to do so, their house,,their rules).

Handguns chambered for a cartridge 'No longer manufactured in the USA or available in normal trade channals' are not subject to Registration on a NYS Pistol Permit.

That statement is often thought to mean Antique Status' handguns of pre 1899 mfg (old and odd calibers) but it also includes Modern Mfg (post 1899) mfg handguns also of odd chamberings.
If the odd chambered, no ammo around handgun happens to be a Post 1899 mfg , it would still require a 4473/Nics as it's a modern firearm (Fed reg). There's no regualtion about lack of ammo gets you a free paperwork ride on a purchase.

The grey area is the wording 'Not available in normal trade channels'
With the availablilty of the internet, most anything is available and a UPS shipment away from either you or an FFL these days. Old stock ammo is still out there, so the chances of nothing being available are slim.
It really comes down to if you have some in your possession along with the handgun I'd think, but I'm not lawyer.
That's what they've done with the muzzle loading handguns. No registration needed. 'Unless the necessary components to load and fire the handgun are in possession of the owner'.

As a former FFL holder I was advised it was my responsibility(and legal obligation) when transferring a firearm to comply with Federal Law and the local law within the recipients State/Local jurisdiction. The examples of confusion with New York give you and idea of why I would prefer to ship to a dealer in New York rather than direct. I operated in Wisconsin
but had clients in Illinois. Several Ill. sub jurisdictions had their own more restrictive requirements. For Illinois purchasers my policy was. Drive to my shop, fill in the 4473.-Back Ground Check,if approved, come back 48+hours later (Ill. requirement)pick up the gun, complete extra section on 4473. take the gun away. - OR - Let me ship it to your local FFL for $25 shipping charge