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#559811 - 12/05/19 11:22 AM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
LeFusil Offline
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Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 1656
Loc: Utah
“Here is what Gavin sent me about the action:
As you can see from the hi res image, it is just a kit of unfinished parts, in the white. It has come from someone in the trade who refers to it as the “Reilly” action and insisted that I refer to is as such…. but of course it impossible to prove that this unfinished action is originally from the Reilly works. There are no marks or identifying numbers I am afraid.”


There’s absolutely no such thing as a “Reilly” action, is there? That someone “in the trade” isn’t a history guy, that’s for sure.

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#559820 - 12/05/19 07:17 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
Argo44 Offline
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Registered: 02/21/16
Posts: 1634
Loc: McLean, Virginia
Dustin, we are back on familiar ground. I'll restate: You know a lot about guns; you don't know much about Reilly. I have laid out an extensive case for my "New History of Reilly." You haven't contributed much to it.

I'll ask these questions again:
-- Who told you that Reilly did not make guns?
-- Why did you believe him?
-- Have you done any research at all to confirm what you were told?
-- Can you cite one (1) article from the 19th Century press that states Reilly was only a retailer?
-- Can you tell us who made pinfire SN 10655 dated to Spring 1858 pictured above if Reilly did not do it?
-- You have maintained that you are 100% sure Reilly made muzzle loaders (but paradoxically that he had no machinery to do it with). Can you back this up?

This line has proved that virtually every assertion about Reilly made in Boothroyd and Brown is wrong. When we last had this exchange, we agreed that we'd let the market-place and the readers judge this line. They are doing so and I will continue to post the relevant information I find, and hope we can leave it at that for the moment.

In a way you remind me of New Delhi in February 1990. The Berlin Wall had fallen; the Russians had just sold E.Germany to the FRG for $10 billion dollars. Yet the East German Embassy in Delhi was hunkered down, defending the old system, locked up, spying on each other, pretending nothing had happened. I asked a Czech diplomat (communist), headed home to make a new life, what was up. He said, "Oh those German communists are like the Japanese soldiers by-passed on a Pacific Island, guns pointed out to sea, prepared to repel an American invasion, when Tokyo has surrendered."

And Dustin, I don't want to start a flame war...You've expressed your opinion repeatedly. Now, I'll continue to lay out the case for Reilly. We'll see where it takes us.

In spite of all, I don't think you dispute the date chart for Reilly serial numbers, so at least one thing might be positive for you from this line. And Reilly history can't be understood until you can date the guns. smile

Gene Williams




Edited by Argo44 (12/05/19 08:40 PM)
_________________________
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch

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#559828 - 12/05/19 08:50 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
LeFusil Offline
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Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 1656
Loc: Utah
Show us a patent for a “Reilly” action. You can’t. Reilly didn’t have or produce a distinctive “house” action. You can’t even show us were Reilly purchased the rights to produce an action or paid royalties for making an action in house.
To assume that the box of old parts is a Reilly action is laughable.

The side lever Reilly built on the Scott & Baker action...you seriously think Reilly made that? No. They didn’t. Nobody made that except W & C Scott. That’s a fact.

If I were you...I’d walk back on talking about proving Boothroyd or Brown wrong. They actually knew people in the trade....old people...the kind of people that would’ve known everything there is to know about the trade. You don’t have that luxury.

And Gene....don’t get too pissy with me. I’m NOT the only doubter of your Reilly line here on this forum. You’ve done a nice job with serial numbers, etc. but as far you proving that Reilly made or produced modern breech loading, centerfire rifles and shotguns in the golden age of gunmaking you have utterly failed. You have not produced one shred of certifiable, empirical evidence that proves they did in all the mountainous minutiae that you’ve posted on this seemingly never ending thread.

Where does it say in any rule book that I have to be positive when posting a comment? It’s your job, seeing how you’ve taken up the task, to prove that Reilly made guns in the golden era of gunmaking. Stop posting crap about the 1860’s.....most of us here are interested in the late 1870’s to the early 1900’s. That’s where you’re having issues providing the proof. There’s a reason for that.

And understand this sir....as long as I’m a member of this forum, I’ll comment as I see fit on any subject or topic I wish to do so on. Yes, even on your precious Reilly line as you call it. Positive or negative.

Comparing me to a Cold War communist embassy with their heads in the sand? Japanese soldiers that continued to fight after the war was over.....all because you’re upset that I don’t buy into your obsession and fantasy of the Reilly company??
WTF was that? You think, you seriously think that you’ve provided absolute definitive proof of Reilly’s gunmaking prowess in the golden age??? And you think I’m the naive one, that my head is in the sand? Goodness gracious Gene, you’re really grasping for straws aren’t you?

Prove Reilly produced guns in the golden age, it’s on you. You haven’t come close yet. We are ALL still waiting.

Dustin

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#559829 - 12/05/19 09:03 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
Argo44 Offline
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Registered: 02/21/16
Posts: 1634
Loc: McLean, Virginia
I'd like to see your positive evidence that Reilly made muzzle loaders. It's widely accepted - but not proven. That would be helpful Dustin.

And I've asked Gavin about that "Reilly" action and published his response. Because you see...there are 7 "actions" or "action kits" for sale in that auction.
-- Lot 143 - a T Bland & sons action casting
-- Lot 144 - Reilly 4 bore action
-- Lot 145 - Parts for a 4 Bore W Tolley action
-- Lot 146 - Parts for a 4 bore W. Tolley action
-- Lot 147 - Parts for a 4 bore Army-Navy action
-- Lot 148 - A pair of 20 bore actions for Henry Atkin type self-opening side-lock
Somebody is selling his collection and there is a story behind it. Why were they labeled like this? Is it from somebody's great-grandfather? Are there notes - written or oral history? You can post insults. I'll ask for the history from Gavin to try to understand who collected those actions and why,

Oh Dustin...are you now conceding that Reilly made guns in the 1860's?

And since you've raised this...I'm going to post both Boothroyd and Brown's entries on Reilly and will mark where they were wrong. I've discussed this with Crossed chisels and I'm on very solid ground....and I don't care who read the smoke signals...they're wrong.


Edited by Argo44 (12/05/19 09:43 PM)
_________________________
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch

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#559830 - 12/05/19 09:09 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
LeFusil Offline
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Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 1656
Loc: Utah
This is your nutty obsession. Burden of proof is on you fella. You haven’t done it yet, doubt you’ll ever get there.

Show us all a “Reilly” action. Show us a Reilly house Style. Show us positive proof that Reilly made anything in the golden era of gunmaking.

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#559831 - 12/05/19 09:17 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
LeFusil Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 1656
Loc: Utah
Crossed Chisels aka David T knows for a fact Reilly produced guns? Does he know who their head stockmaker was? How about their lead actioner? Barrel makers? Does he know or has he EVER met anyone that knew someone who worked for Reilly or was trained by a gunmaker from Reilly??

You using Trevallion as someone to provide your argument a bit of credence to your fantasy is a garbage trick. People can see right through it. I know gunmakers too, dude. NONE of them believe your fantasy about Reilly. So what? Does it make my argument more persuasive if I name drop? I don’t need to drop their names to make my point.

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#559832 - 12/05/19 09:20 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
Argo44 Offline
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Registered: 02/21/16
Posts: 1634
Loc: McLean, Virginia
No, I talked to David about Boothroyd who was a personal friend.
_________________________
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch

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#559835 - 12/05/19 09:41 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
Argo44 Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 02/21/16
Posts: 1634
Loc: McLean, Virginia
Dustin, Let me review 1880 which which I've mentioned above:

-- in 1881 Reilly made the decision to sell "off-the-rack." His Serial Numbered production jumped from 600 - 650 a year, where it had been for 12 years to over 1000 a year. How did he do this? He had two huge buildings but it seems like 650 a year was pretty much their capacity. At that point it is certainly possible he began to buy actions or guns in the white and finish them himself. His stocks and engraving remain very consistent.

-- So it's perfectly possible his business model changed about 1880...i.e. He could no longer compete with Birmingham...and I've mentioned that his military lines (Green and Comblain) and cutlery lines dried up in the 1870's and he had to find new streams of revenue. Please read the above. (I really don't think you've read anything)

-- Oh, Dustin, by 1898 Reilly was pretty much toast.

As for patents paid...they are stamped on the guns. Unfortunately few sellers publish these (Toby Barclay excepted)...I have put them in brown on the extant Reilly chart and you'll see lot's of use numbers paid to Purdey et.al. (Dustin...please read).

A Reilly "House Style"?? Dustin - really?

Anyway...as they say in the Hash House Harriers. ...."On On." I'll continue to let you know what I turn up. And Dustin....I am nutty but in a historical context - I got interested in this particular subject....I also wrote 173 papers on the Pashtun tribes along the Durrand line...it's just interesting to me.


Edited by Argo44 (12/05/19 10:42 PM)
_________________________
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch

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#559839 - 12/05/19 10:48 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
keith Offline
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Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 10075
I think Dustin's argument has merit, and what he says makes a lot of sense. Patent law was pretty well established in England by Reilly's time, and any astute businessman with a fairly large factory would certainly have tried to protect his ideas and innovations. And especially one who engaged in patent infringements himself. I can find a lot of anecdotal evidence for the existence of Santa Claus. I may wish to believe it too. But that alone won't make it true.

Does that 600 to 650 guns per year, or 1000 guns per year include air guns and air canes that Reilly actually did claim to manufacture? And does it also include the various other long guns and revolvers that Reilly apparently either made, or had made under contract, which infringed upon other gunmaker's designs and patents? If air guns and counterfeits were built in house, would his facilities and employees have also been able to build, finish, and engrave 1000 shotguns and double rifles per year?

That business model sounds a lot like the Chinese manufacturers who counterfeit merchandise, and who steal the intellectual property of legitimate designers and manufacturers. It seems to be acknowledged that Reilly engaged in these types of illicit ventures. That wouldn't make him someone to look up to or admire. I think it would make him more of a scalawag.
_________________________
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.


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#559840 - 12/05/19 10:51 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
LeFusil Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 1656
Loc: Utah
Ya. Really. Most London makers...Hell most Birmingham makers had a “house style”. You act like you’ve never heard that term Gene. An operation as big as Reilly’s would’ve had a house style, just to distinguish themselves. Face it, by the time Reilly hit the golden age...they were practically a Dicks Sporting Goods.

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