doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

Yes....that's what I was afraid of....still more mystery in the English gun-making progress - how did patent use numbers work? Were all firms the same? How did numbering systems work? How did outworkers contracts work? Does a gun company get credit for building a gun if barrels, engraving, barrel blacking were outsourced? Nevertheless, delving into the patent use question may add a piece to the puzzle.

By the way, more from Purdey....."Stranger and stranger," said Alice to the Rabbit. All these years everybody has said that Purdey was next door to Reilly because Purdey was 314 1/2 and Reilly was 315. Turns out Purdey was 300 yards down the street in a building later renumbered 295...meaning that was the very building that Reilly moved into in 1904 - and one more indication that conventional wisdom about Reilly is wrong (I don't know how many times "Reilly next to Purdey" has been cited).

Dear Mr. Williams

The patent use numbers on the guns may assist you, as may stamps applied to the barrels such as the "JA" of Joseph Asbury. However, on a side note, it is worth looking at where Reilly's actually operated from. I say this because we actually had 313 & 315 Oxford Street, with the factory in 313 and the shop in 315. We used 314 1/2 from 1827 until we left in 1882 because there was more than one 315 Oxford Street, another one of which held a gunmaker called Rivere at some point. When they renumbered the street in the late 1870s, we became 295-297, but used the 314 1/2 address on guns until we moved to Audley House. I know that the Survey of London are working on research on Oxford Street, and I can ask them to see whether they might be able to confirm Reilly's "true" position on the street?

I hope that this is of some help.

=======================================================================================================
Reilly cartridges

Reilly made cartridges for center break guns from 1860 on. They have been found in digs in Canada . His foreman John Baker took out a patent for finishing cartridges in 1861 as detailed above. He did not have the cartridges made for him by someone. And he was a rival for Eley. Here is a Reilly Patent turnover/crimper made by James Dixon:


Cartridges were a major revenue producer for Reilly (as mentioned above when discussing pin-fires). Let me repost these to put it in one place:

John Baker's 1861 patent for Reilly:


And an ad for Baker's system from 1862:


E.M. Reilly & Co. pin-fire cartridge head stamping:


Drawing of E.M Reilly & Co. center fire cartridges found in an archeological dig in Canada:

And for fun for you all who have never had the opportunity to travel to the sub-continent (I only spent 11 years there)....here is an Indian muslim shikari discussing in Hindi/Urdu his EM Reilly SN (as best I can make out) 20498, a top lever, ejector hammer gun which would date per my chart to 1877. From what I gather this was a famous gun, owned by a notable person and it suddenly devolved in 1977 to ...someone...I'll have to tap our Indian community for the translation,

I know these people....I can smell the hut. You can hear the budgerigars (parakeets) in the background, the kids, smell the curry. I'm suddenly homesick. (Except in my day the charpoy would not be made out of plastic).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qQ3S1rkKD4

Dr. Harlow from Purdey has sent another message saying he was in error about the shop occupied by Purdey on Oxford Street....they were renumbered 287 & 289 in November 1881. Here is the location of Purdey in relationship to Reilly's workshop at 277 Oxford Street from Google Earth:









The access tunnel to the Salvation Army Hall through 277 Oxford St. above was what provoked the law-suit in 1889 which is still quoted today

I've seen quotes from this line starting to be used by auction houses. On p.22 I offered some short versions of the New History for this purpose (and it took 2.5 years of research before I dared write that history). I'll repost it here for practical use by whomever:

Offer this short version for auction houses with limited space for a gun description:
Begin proposed comment:

"Per a well-researched chart dating Reilly SN's, SN NNNNN was likely numbered circa YYYYY (year).". (consult the dating chart for Reilly serial numbers on p.33)

Then add one of the following comments:

============================ Short ========================

Joseph Charles Reilly, b1786, Ireland, moved to London to study law c1808. In 1814 he opened a jewelry shop at 12 Middle Row, Holborn Bars, next to the Inns of the Court where his clientele included barristers and country gentlemen. He began making guns in the 1820's and by 1833 identified himself exclusively as "gun maker." From the beginning he employed a consistent business model; Make a quality product, sell it for a moderate price; deliver it rapidly; and with this model he undercut better known gun makers.

In 1835 he moved to 316 High Holborn where in 1840 his 23 year old son Edward Michael joined him as a partner in the company. In March 1847 they moved to 502 New Oxford Street (renumbered "16" in 1881) where they remained for 50 years. The gun ribs were for the most part labeled "Reilly." The company advertised as "Reilly, Gun Maker."

In September 1857 JC Reilly retired in favor of EM. In January 1859 a branch was opened at 315 Oxford Street (renumbered 277 in 1881) and that autumn the company name was changed to E.M. Reilly & Co., a name which lasted on gun ribs and on trade labels and advertisements until circa 1940 and beyond. A branch was opened in Paris at 2 rue Scribe in 1868 after his triumphal exhibition at the 1867 Paris World's Fair.

By 1880 Reilly was making twice as many bespoke hand-made guns as Purdey and Holland & Holland combined and his guns dominated UK pigeon shooting contests for 20 years. In August 1885 rue Scribe was closed and in 1890 EM Reilly died. In 1898 16 New Oxford street was closed.

In 1903 the company moved from 277 to 295 Oxford street where they remained until bankruptcy in June 1912. A small gun shop E.M. Reilly & Co., Gun Maker, located at 13 High Street, Marylebone run by EM Reilly's son, continued in business until 1918. In 1922 a sporting goods dealer Charles Riggs bought the name "E.M Reilly & Co." and used it for many years on his retailed guns made in Birmingham. Riggs-Reillys use six digit serial numbers.

The Reilly's sold all types of guns in various qualities using all types of actions. Reilly's serial numbered about 33,000 guns from circa 1825 to 1912, all built by them. The guns that they made had an artistic elegance and balance, which is unmistakable. They were one of the first to use highly figured French walnut for their stocks and their engraving, for the most part floral scroll work, was consistently classy. Reilly's best guns were as good as those produced anywhere in England at the time.

============================ Shorter ========================

The Reilly's, Joseph Charles (JC) Reilly (1786-1864), his son Edward Michael (EM) (1817-1890) and his EM's sons Bert and Charles, made guns in London from the early 1820's to 1918 working out of several address including in order:
-- 1814-1835 - 12 Middle Row, Holborn Bars;
-- 1835-1847 - 316 High Holborn;
-- 1847-1898 - 502 ("16" after 1881) New Oxford Street;
-- 1859-1903 - 315 ("277" after 1881) Oxford Street;
-- 1868-1885 - a branch at 2 rue Scribe, Paris
-- 1903-1912 - 295 Oxford Street
-- 1912-1918 - 13 High Street, Marylebone
In 1922 the Reilly name was bought by sporting goods dealer Charles Riggs who used it for many years on his retailed guns made in Birmingham. These guns can be identified by their use of six digit serial numbers.

Reilly sold all types of guns in various qualities using all types of actions. Reilly serial numbered about 33,000 guns from circa 1825 to 1912, all built by them. The guns that they made had an artistic elegance and balance, which is unmistakable. They were one of the first to use highly figured French walnut for their stocks and their engraving, for the most part floral scroll work, was consistently classy. Reilly's best guns were as good as those produced anywhere in England at the time.

============================ Shorter ========================

Reilly (JC Reilly-1786-1864, his son EM-1817-1890 and after EM's death the grandsons) made guns in London from the early 1820's to 1918. For much of that time they were located on Oxford Street or its vicinity with a branch in Paris for 17 years 1868-85. After 1922 the Reilly name was used on guns retailed by Charles Riggs but made in Birmingham. Reilly's sold all types of guns in various qualities using all types of actions. Reilly serial numbered about 33,000 guns from circa 1825 to 1912, all built by them. The guns they made had an artistic elegance and balance, which is unmistakable. They were one of the first to use highly figured French walnut for their stocks and their engraving, for the most part floral scroll work, was consistently classy. Reilly's best guns were as good as those produced anywhere in England at the time.

============================ Shortest ========================

Reilly (JC Reilly-1786-1864, his son EM-1817-1890 and after EM's death the grandsons) made excellent quality guns in London from the early 1820's to 1918. After 1922 a sporting goods dealer used the name on guns he sold built in Birmingham.

Holt's replied to my question about Reilly 11460 pin-fire with pictures - they did not know what a Beringer action looked like. First impressions:
-- the SN is 14469 (early 1867) not 11469 - quite disappointing; I'll change the entry on the extant list. (You'd think auction houses would be more careful)
-- It looks like a Jones underlever double-bite locking system?
-- the forearm looks to be attached to the stock in the old Lefaucheux method:
-- The gun is a lot rattier than the original picture made it appear.

Is that tab a hammer rest on the top of each fence where there is a bit of cross-hatching?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I assume so...Here a close up up the action from the auction catalog - you can see the hammer resting on that area:

Interesting shapes to the hammer noses... And wonderful to get additional pictures. It does look like a generic Jones-type double bite screw grip. The additional barrel lug is not a type I�ve encountered before. Fixed fore-ends were more common on Continental-sourced actions (I have a Masu Brothers pinfire with a fixed fore-end, of Belgian design, but it is not a bar-in-wood), but not unknown amongst British makers. All bar-in-wood actions seem to be different from one another, and therefore all are special.

At least the (correct) serial number is in keeping with your timeline, the design and presumed date do not conflict.

There is always something to add to the story, and I look forward to the next instalments!

Yeah, those hammers resemble Dolphins or Porpoises. I don't recall, but did makers from the little British Isles adorn there weapons like the Continental makers? Yeah, the Austrians hung on to that attached platform till The Great War or possibly a little later.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse