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#558586 - 11/18/19 08:18 AM Re: Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 vs. Post 64 [Re: rtw]
Run With The Fox Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 6684
Loc: Michigan
Agree 100%-- sounds like Roger Rule's expert analysis- I have darn near memorized his "Bible" and well worth it- Thanks to Roger, and some "time in grade" studying Winchesters (only pre-1964) I have saved myself some dinero on gun show offerings of M70's-- The Carbine with the 20" barrel- many std. M70's had the 24" barrels cut to 20" and a new sight ramp soldered on- The Carbine was only offered from about 1939 through 1947- with the factor of WW2 military production affecting the production of sporting arms by WRA (M70's, M12's, M97's- etc.)and during that time frame, the front sight ramps were indeed, milled- NOT soldered (that came later, after the Carbine was deleted. I have seen a few "restocked" Std. grades passed off as being Super Grades- by changing the magazine floorplate-- Roger Rule ties the letter stamps to model years, cross referenced to serial numbers- easy to spot a "ringer" if you have his book at hand.

I thought, at times, about replacing the cheesy aluminum floorplate on my FW M70--just haven't done it yet-- I'd still take that post 1952 M70 over any: Weatherby, Remington, Savage BA-- the only Mauser styled rifles that compete with the FWM70, IMO, are: (1) Pre-Garcia FN Sako, and early FN Belgium Browning. Also, every M70 built from late 1936 through the 1964 (year of the Big FUBAR) by WRA--had the serial number electro-etched on the bolt- I turned down a nice 1949 era M70 in .300 H&H Mag because the bolt etched SN didn't match that found on the receiver- Caveat Emptor!!

RWTF


Edited by Run With The Fox (11/18/19 11:32 AM)
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#558611 - 11/18/19 12:22 PM Re: Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 vs. Post 64 [Re: Run With The Fox]
eightbore Offline
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Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 12944
Loc: Maryland
rtw and Researcher seem to have no soul in their posts. If a Mossburg had a better trigger or feed mechanism than a Purdey, would the Mossburg tickle your thingy more than the Purdey? End of story. Mills, what, exactly, are you looking for in your early Model 70, caliber etc?

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#558620 - 11/18/19 02:05 PM Re: Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 vs. Post 64 [Re: Mills]
rocky mtn bill Offline
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Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 1270
Loc: MT
I'd say the pre-64 M70 is the best American mass-production rifle we have. On an absolute scale, however, the Germans were ahead of us by about three decades. The Mauser ( Oberndorf) and JP Sauer rifles imported prior to WWI were the best thing going and are unmatched for quality today. We didn't begin to match their rifles until 1936.
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#558631 - 11/18/19 03:16 PM Re: Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 vs. Post 64 [Re: Mills]
LRF Offline
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 914
Loc: Minnesota
Interesting 1936, year the M70 was introduced
Of course the M70 has one distinct improvement over the Mauser's and Springfield's and that is lock-time. Quicker by half.
Then there is the trigger but then my first comment is enough.

rtw, PM'd me yesterday and part of my response was this: "Buying model 70's you have to ask yourself. If I buy a new gun it will get used and depreciate in value. And is it as good as a pre-64 rifle? Or buy a pre-64 for which we know how good they are and after you use it, as long as you don't abuse it, will be worth as much as it was when you bought it." Easy decision for me


Edited by LRF (11/18/19 03:17 PM)

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#558636 - 11/18/19 03:34 PM Re: Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 vs. Post 64 [Re: rocky mtn bill]
craigd Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 6012
Cough, cough. I think I know what you're saying Bill, but maybe the category could be trimmed down to classic sporter styled production bolt actions. There's got to be a few lever action fans that have a thought or two on the quality of their favorite production rifles.

I may be recalling it wrong, but I think the old catalog prices of pre WW I German sporting bolt action rifles were well out of the price reach of someone looking for a mass produced rifle. I think, they were for a limited market, available in limited numbers to match. With influences from many parts of the world, I think American custom gunsmiths take the absolute scale edge for sporting bolt rifles, but that stretches much farther from mass production.

Is it design or execution, or some balance of both that's under consideration. The point being is that '98 Mausers are rather common, some current production arms are very well crafted, but what does it take to make them interesting.

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#558642 - 11/18/19 05:45 PM Re: Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 vs. Post 64 [Re: Mills]
rocky mtn bill Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 1270
Loc: MT
Craig, you're right that the imported Mausers were priced far beyond the American hunting rifles of the time. I think tariffs were part of that problem. It may be that our custom rifle tradition emerged from the cost of high quality factory rifles from Germany. Our early custom makers' products were better than factory stuff in their detail but not in their design.
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#558645 - 11/18/19 06:33 PM Re: Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 vs. Post 64 [Re: Mills]
rtw Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 12/24/17
Posts: 101
Loc: SE Michigan
I was simply trying to understand if there were specific features that made the Pre-64 M70 such a standout from the current CRF models. There are advantages in the newer models that haven't been mentioned--availability of newer cartridges (6.5 Creedmoor, for example), stainless steel actions, etc.

I have a .270 Winchester built on a G33/40 action. I think that one reason Mauser actions were such a favorite of custom gunsmiths was that they required more work-a lot more work. New bottom metal, new trigger, new safety, grinding and polishing, new barrel contouring and fitting, new bolt handle, custom stock, etc., etc.

You really didn't have to do much of anything with a pre-64 M70.



Edited by rtw (11/18/19 06:35 PM)

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#558647 - 11/18/19 07:01 PM Re: Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 vs. Post 64 [Re: Mills]
LRF Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 914
Loc: Minnesota
This is so so true...
"..... didn't have to do much of anything with a pre-64 M70."
smile

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#558655 - 11/18/19 07:38 PM Re: Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 vs. Post 64 [Re: Mills]
rtw Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 12/24/17
Posts: 101
Loc: SE Michigan


Edited by rtw (11/18/19 07:45 PM)

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#558667 - 11/18/19 09:36 PM Re: Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 vs. Post 64 [Re: Mills]
craigd Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 6012
I think every aspect of newer production M70s could be looked at as a technical improvement, except that they don't make 'em like they used to. I'm thinking that you may have an advantage in that you may not have to insist on collector level condition.

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