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An E. M. Reilly sleeved boxlock was my first "nice" shotgun. I enquired about it here back in the late '90s, I think. I was told then that Reilly was a marketer not a maker. I for one am glad Argo is examining this long expressed opinion.

I can't agree yet that he has 'proven' the fallacy of the marketer reputation, but at least I am open to whatever facts may be disclosed by Argo's research.

The Reilly I have is still one of my favorites...Geo

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==========================================================
Errors re Reilly in well known histories of UK gunmakers

These quotes on Reilly from well-known writers are not meant as digs at the authors - in the pre-internet days this was what was accepted as the "truth" about Reilly. This post then is meant to point out that gun scholarship about Reilly, once regarded as "fact," written by the most knowledgeable authors on UK gun-making and repeated by others over the course of 75 years, was in fact riddled with mis-statements, mis-conceptions and fundamental errors.

==========================================================
Volume 3 of Nigel Brown's BRITISH GUNMAKERS - (courtesy of Lagopus.)

REILLY EDWARD MICHAEL/& Co/REILLY JOSEPH CHARLES. E.M. Reilly was the son of Joseph and took over the business in 1899 (*1) having been separated in business on his own account since 1848 (*2). Since it looks as though Edward may have continued his father's numbering system at least initially (*3), I have therefore tabulated both their records together. E.M Reilly was last recorded as such in 1917 (*4) but Charles Riggs & Co., who set up in 1909, started advertising himself as Charles Riggs & Co. (incorporating E.M. Reilly & co., Est. 100 years) c.1942 (*5) and from the look of the last Reilly gun noted he may well have been using the name a little before that. Reilly put out a large number of guns as can be seen from the Nos. noted - not all of which are listed. There was a Paris branch in the Rue Scribe certainly in the 1870's and 1880's.(*6)

Followed by a list of guns with numbers and dates starting with c.1840 No. 254, (*7) a percussion pistol, and ending in 1936/7 with number 150570.(*8)

Comment:
(*1) - No. He became a full partner in the business in 1840, JC retired abruptly in Sept 1857 and EM became the owner; He changed the name to EM Reilly & Co. in Oct 1859 and died in July 1890.
(*2) - No. The businesses were never separate - EM and JC shared the same building and advertisements to the end.
(*3) - Yes sort of. Although as detailed in this history, they bumped their main-line Serial Number series up 5000 numbers when they moved in March 1847 and JC kept a series of numbers for himself,
(*4) - No, EM Reilly & Co., is recorded in the 1918 London phone book.
(*5) - No, Riggs incorporated the Reilly name in August 1922.
(*6) - The Paris branch at Rue Scribe existed from Feb 1868 to July 1885.
(*7) - #254 would have been numbered in the 1820's - I've put it as 1829....it could be a bit earlier or later depending on the start date of Reilly manufacture and the first number he used. Terry Weiland cited 254 as the earliest Reilly as well. The oldest SN so far found is #88
(*8) - Riggs serial numbers are 6 digit beginning about 130000.

==========================================================
Boothroyd's Directory of British Gunmakers on Reilly - (courtesy of Larry Brown.). (Better than most)

Joseph Charles Reilly first appeared as a jeweler at 12 Middle Row, Holborn, in 1816(*1).

By 1835 he had become a gunmaker at 316 High Holborn where he remained until 1847(*2). His son, Edward Michael Reilly became his father's partner at new premises(*3), 502 Oxford Street, first occupied around 1848 (*4). A shop at Rue Scribe, Paris, is recorded in 1882 and 1884, but not in 1893(*5). The name became Reilly & Co around 1860 (*6) and was already known as E.M. Reilly & Co in 1882.(*7)

In April 1903, due to the rebuilding of 277 Oxford street, the firm moved to number 295 on the same street and they appear to have remained there for some years as this address was given when they became a limited company in December 1911(*8). The directors were named as H. Reilly and C.W. Roberts (*9) and the capital was 2,000 pounds. In March 1920 Reilly's were incorporated into the business of Charles Riggs & Co Ltd of 107 Bishopsgate.(*10)


Comment:
(*1) - Close but no: Opened his Jewelry shop in 1814.
(*2) - Dates are correct: I have the month and day of the moves.
(*3) - No: I believe EM became a partner in the business in 1840 when his advertisements changed from "J.C. Reilly" to just "Reilly."
(*4) - 502 New Oxford St. was first occupied March 23, 1847.
(*5) - Yes...but 2 rue Scribe Paris was occupied from Feb 1868 to August 1885. Statement is correct but incomplete.
(*6) - Not exactly - "Reilly & Co., was used for a short time in Aug 1858-Spring 1859;
(*7) - Correct but incomplete; by Apr 1859 the name had changed to "E.M. Reilly & Co."
(*8) - Correct up to a point; Bankruptcy was declared publicly on 8 Jun 1912.
(*9) - Sort of: Roberts was a liquidator lawyer; I believe they knew bankruptcy was coming and thus created the Limited liability company to protect their personal fortunes.
(*10) - I do not believe this is correct. Riggs began advertising his sale of "E.M. Reilly & Co., London" guns in August 1922.

============================================
Vintage British Shotguns by Terry Weiland, p. 259

E.M. Reilly & Co.

Edward Michael Reilly was a London gunmaker born 1816 (*1) who entered his father's business in 1848 (*2). By 1861 the firm was called Edward M. Reilly & Co. (*3), which later evolved into E.M Reilly & Co (*4). The firm was located in Oxford Street throughout its existence (*5), but the numbers changed sometimes because the firm moved and sometimes because the buildings were renumbered.

For awhile in the 1880's, the firm had an outlet on Rue Scribe in Paris (*6) - an indication of how successful the company was.

Although it was not a household name E.M Reilly was well respected and its products were used by two of the most famous hunters of the Victorian age Sir Samuel Baker and Frederick Courteney Selous. Baker used a pair of E.M. Reilly 10 bores to back up his monstrous "Baby"; Reading of this and seeking seeking to emulate the much admired Baker, Selous took a Reilly 12 bore with him on his first venture to Africa but the gun was stolen shortly after he landed.

E.M. Reilly lasted until 1917 (*7) when it was bought out by Charles Riggs & Co. (*8), which sold shooting accessories. The Reilly name disappeared from gun making. (*9)

Reilly is known to have made hammer guns and boxlocks most of which were probably made in Birmingham and finished at the shop in London (*10). Its boxlocks ranged from very basic to genuine bests.

Comment:
(*1) - No, EM was born Sep 1817
(*2) - No, EM entered the business as early as 1835 and by 1840 was probably a partner.
(*3) - No, There was never a firm called "Edward M. Reilly & Co."
(*4) - No, The name "EM Reilly & Co.", is first noted in April 1859.
(*5) - No, The firm in London was not always on Oxford street as detailed in the history.
(*6) - No, The Paris branch at Rue Scribe existed from Feb 1868 to July 1885, not just the 1880's.
(*7) - No, Company was still listed in the 1918 London directory.
(*8) - No, Riggs first began using the name "E.M. Reilly & Co., London" in August 1922.
(*9) - Riggs used the name on possibly as many as 20,000 guns, none built by him, all made in Birmingham.
(*10) - Terry cites no evidence for this assertion - although he does qualify it with the words "probably" and "most."

===========================================
From a UK help site - conclusions are worth noting

According to Nigel Brown's "British Gunmakers" , E.M. Reilly produced shotguns from around 1881 until at least 1916 in London in two locations and also had a retail store front on the Rue Scribe in Paris.

Reilly functioned in a similar fashion as did Scott, Webley and other London makers of the time in that his work was evenly divided between retail sales and also wholesale manufacture "to the trade". It appears that he made guns for several famous London makers who in turn marked his products with their Company names.

Reilly made weapons in several grades from pure field utilitarian (very plain) to extra fancy (heavy scroll engraving, cased, burl walnut grain stocks). Depending on the form and condition, the standard models retail from $325 to $450 and the higher grades up to $2,500 with collectors.

Last edited by Argo44; 12/11/21 01:00 PM.

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For the record in response to a question from Dustin - from this line a post by 300846: https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=333352
"There is a record (according to Crudgington & Baker) of Reilly paying 'royalties' to J D Dougall for use of the Lockfast patent which would point to him being a practical gunmaker."

You'll see mention of "Lockfast patent" in the 1862 ads above....same ad which states you can get a muzzleloading Reilly with Brazier Locks (for an extra 6 - obviously to pay the royalties).

I'll check C&B further for more of this type of information - didn't know it existed. Thanks 300846.

I don't have the book....do they cite sourcing for the information? Where did they get this? - JD Dougall records? Did individual manufacturers keep records of royalties paid to them? by them? I have written to Purdey asking if they have such records. I may write to other still extant gun makers who might have such records.

Last edited by Argo44; 12/09/19 09:44 PM.

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Royal Armories Museum has sent me four documents from John Blanch's scrapbook which are interesting. I'll post 3 of them here - the 4th, engineering drawings of breech loading revolving cylinder rifles and pistols is not so relevant:

1). This is the receipt for a center break gun bought by William Blanch from Beringer in 1855. This may be the very gun he brought back to England to reverse engineer - this is the dawn of the British center-break gun industry:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

2). Ad for E. Dafour center break gun at the 1855 Paris Universelle - highlighting Blanch's interest in the subject. The gist to the advertisement is that this gun can be loaded from the muzzle or from the breech, depending on what munitions are available. (I can translate it in its entirety if someone wishes). (incidentally, I've noticed French advertisements are much more "hyped" that UK ads at the time).

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

3) A pamphlet written by Joseph Lang in January 1857 extolling the advances of the Breech Loading Gun: - on p,12 he lists his accomplishments including a first place medal in the 1855 Paris Universelle and being voted a member of the Academie National. He mentions he has used breech loaders for 3 years - which would mean he began to shoot them in January 1854....and that he was currently making breech loaders (as of Jan 1857)(p.9). etc.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 11/26/23 08:53 PM.

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Argo44, the Beringer receipt and the Lang pamphlet really made my day, thanks for posting them.

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In trying to find out if patent royalty payments were made to companies other than JD Dougall I wrote to Purdey asking if they retained records of royalty payments made to the company from other companies for the years 1860-1890. I received the following reply:

Dear Mr. Williams

Thank you for your email. I am afraid that, as far as I am aware, we do not retain a record of payments made for patent usage. Given the date when these patents were in force, the finances of the company were tied up with those of the family, and those ledgers are currently locked (quite literally!) As such, I don't think I have anything that will be of assistance to you, but should you have any further questions I will be happy to assist as best I can.

Yours sincerely

Dr. Nicholas A. Harlow
Gunroom Manager

James Purdey & Sons Ltd
Audley House
57-58 South Audley Street
London, W1K 2ED


I'm still wondering where Crudgington & Baker got their information on Dougall. I'll have to go down to Library of Congress to take a look at the book unless someone here has a copy. Still, this is a line of inquiry to be followed.

Last edited by Argo44; 12/11/21 06:02 PM.

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Argo44, not sure if any of this is helpful, but some time ago I had about a dozen original hand written contracts between Westley Richards and various gunmakers wishing to use their various patents, including Deeley controlled patents. Each of these contracts specified the payment for each patent use and that the other gunmakers were to bring by their guns using the patents to Westley Richards for inspection and numbering of the uses. Exceptions to this process were later granted to Scott who would not bring the products by for inspection and Harrington Richardson in the U.S. , who had sole U.S. license for the Anson Deeley patent. H and R would use the serial number as the patent use number.
I have a Richard Jeffery pinfire with a Dougall Lockfast action with the Dougall Lockfast marks on the underside. Action is stamped J Wilkes in a mostly hidden area meaning that he was probably the actioner.


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You have probably seen this Reilly pinfire.

https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/as...3&saletype=

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Many thanks Daryl. Here's my thinking on patents (and please correct me if I'm wrong). If Reilly built a gun, it's logical that the Reilly company paid for the patents. Thus, if a company's records have Reilly payments - voila proof they made the gun. If Reilly ordered a gun and it was built by say WC Scott or someone else, Scott would have paid for the patents and Reilly would have paid Scott for the gun.

That was what Crudgington & Baker were suggesting with their comment about the "Lock-fast" patent. Does that seem logical? Are there other explanations? For instance, one poster here suggested firms bought whole blocks of numbers rather than taking an order then having to go get a use number. From the looks of use numbers on Reilly Purdey patent 1104, that explanation doesn't fit.

As mentioned, most auction houses or retail sellers do not bother to put patent use numbers found on a gun into their advertisements, Toby Barclay excluded. Here are a few Reilly's using Purdey patent 1104 with the use number. I was hoping that Purdey could confirm who paid for that patent use number:

17393 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London and 2 Rue Scribe, Paris; 12bore. Shotgun SxS. Push-forward U-L, hammer gun. Purdey Pat 1104, use #948 (CBL1's gun) (dated on my chart 1872)
17476 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. 12bore. Shotgun SxS. U-L, Hammer gun (Buffum) (Purdey Pat 1104)(use# not mentioned)(1872)
17534 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London; 12 bore, SxS shotgun. Pushforward underlever, Purdy 1104 patent use # 1037.(1872)
18523 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street & rue Scribe, Paris. Shotgun SxS 12bore; U-L, hammer gun, Purdey patent 1104, use #2135(1874)
20468 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London and rue Scribe, Paris. 10bore. Shotgun SxS. Top lever hammer gun; Purdey patent 1104 use #3463 (1877)
25161 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502, New Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. .500BPE/12ga. Rifle/Shotgun; side lever, hammer gun. (King of Spain prize - 1880 case; 1883 gun) Purdey double-bite patent 1104 (use # not mentioned)

=========================================================

As for the pinfire SN 11469, it was in the September 2019 auction and did not sell...given its rareness and condition and very moderate price that seemed surprising. I dated the SN to Sprin 1860. I commented on it previously on this line and here is my entry in the extant Reilly list on p.33 above:

11469 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (Address not mentioned). 12 bore; SxS; Pin-fire; under-lever, bar-in-wood.(1st SN'd extant center-break gun using Jones under-lever Sep 1859 patent)

After our discussion on the early days of British center-break guns above with Steve Nash, I'm now wondering if this is a Jones U/L or whether it is a single bite copy of Beringer's system. I wrote to Holts about this and never heard back...since the gun is coming up for sale again, I'll hit them up again. I do know that by 1861 Reilly was advertising a underlever "double-grip" system - see post above.

I've sent the following to Holts:
Sir, re the Reilly pin-fire SN 11469, lot number 2136 in your January 2020 sealed bid auction: Is this a single bite Reilly copy of the Beringer design or a double-bit Jones under-lever? Many thanks for the information.

Last edited by Argo44; 03/07/20 10:39 AM.

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I follow your line of thinking, Argo. I would guess not all holders of patents used the same patent use process that Westley Richards did. Of course they were one of the industry leaders, but I'm not sure others did exactly the same.

As to when the Patent Use fees were paid during the process of making a complete gun, I don't know except for the Westley Richards process. I believe that the guns Westley Richards had brought to them were in a state of being unfinished, completely, but were operable assemblies that Westley Richards could approve. Now, we do not know when a partially finished gun was brought to Westley Richards, who brought it in. It could have been an outworker like J. Wilkes with the Dougall patent gun, or it could be the company who finally finished the gun, partially made elsewhere. So, to answer your question, if Reilly names show up paying for patent use on the ledgers of others, it seems not to prove one way or another who made the working barreled action, Reilly or others for Reilly.

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