doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Model 12 Question

Since I've been isolated from the 16ga.com forum for sometime now, I'll ask this here: what was the serial number range where 2 5/8-inch chambers became 2 3/4-inch in the 16 gauge guns? I can think of at least one of the denizens here that will know that one. My imprecise memory of the matter tells me it was in the 500k range. The follow-up question would be what year did Nickel Steel steel barrels end and Proof Steel begin? 1932?

Don't know the exact serial number span but I am pretty sure the chamber length for 16ga was changed to 2 3/4 in 1927 or 1928 in the model 12

PM sent,
Mike

PLUS

http://guncollectionsonline.com/model12.htm

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=393216

Skeettx: Thankyou! So....1928 is a definite "maybe". Life is hard as a 16ga.com exile.

I will assist you in updating your log in info with s_long

Mike

That makes 2 of us- no biggie for me, as I no longer have Any of the "bastard gauge" shotguns now-a-days. The 20 gauge went to 2&3/4" chambers in 1927-1928 years of production-- The 16 in 1932, one year after WRA went from nickel steel to WinchesterProofSteel (AISI 4140) The designation of M1912 to M12 happened in 1919-- hard to pin down sn's on "The Perfect Repeater": the exact sn range for the 16' as WRA assembly methods and SN concurrency did not always "dove-tail"

So, a 635,991 Sn )(aprox YOM 1937) could have been a field grade M12 16, a 635992 could have been a Pigeon Grade 12 gauge-etc.etc.


I am, was, and always will be highly influenced by the writings of the late Paul A. Curtis,in his 1934 book: "Guns and Gunning" he refers to the 16 as a bit of a bastard- Not a 12, and not a 20, stuck in between as a "sad compromise" gauge- Not used in Trap or International Clays, never seen on the big dollar pigeon rings- but to be fair, I also consider the 3" 20 gauge to be also a bit of a bastard gauge-

If you want that extra recoil, shoot a std. 12 gauge with appropriate loads-- I like the 2&1/2" 12, and if I had the bank account balance, and wanted to hunt quail in Dixie- I'd take a 6&1/4 lb. 2&1/2" chambered English "Best"- 28" barrels bored cyl. and imp. cyl, straight handed stock, DT, EJ--doesn't cost too much to dream, ey wot??

Umm, please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Winchester start stamping chamber lengths after changes were made. For example,
12 gauges were presumed to be 2 and 3/4 length and were unmarked as so until the coming of the 3 inch shells and then they were stamped accordingly.

Well, as per usual, "Fox with the Runs" is putting out wrong information again. Winchester began lengthening Model 12 16-gauge chambers from 2 9/16 inch to 2 3/4 inch and 20-gauge Model 12 chambers from 2 1/2 inch to 2 3/4 inch in late 1926. For some reason, the big W didn't get around to lengthening the chambers of 16-gauge Model 97s until 1931.

Maybe- but I got my info from the Madis book-from whence commeth your "inside data"?? And in the long run, who gives a BRA--any serious gun collector has access to chamber gauges, ditto choke gauges, and snap caps or dummy shells in the gauges wherein his collectivitis may reside-RWTF

I went to my Madis book-found it-- page 41-- "At serials near one million, a new marking is seen, but was NOT used regularly on 16 gauge guns until serials passed 1,283,000."-- skip to page 161- you'll see that the 1,283,000 sn range is in aprox. the 1951 year of production. I am glad you raised the ??'s, Sir- as my M12 3" Magnum "Heavy Duck" gun is in the 1,119,000 sn. range, and I just assumed it was 1949-- no biggie- but it was pre- the "Dog Legged Op Rod. Fiasco WRA cooked up- We all make mistakes, do we not.

Even my favorite gun writer/olde curmudgeon David Petzal, in his 1984 excellent article on the venerable M12- miss-id'ed a Featherweight M12 with a "muzzle device" as a M12 Pigeon Grade Skeet Gun- ooops--try to sell or even give away any M12 to a serious M12 man equipped with a Cutts or Poly- or Versa-Choke-- good luck..

Not the detail of the Madis or Riffle books on The Perfect Repeater, but a fun read from an old USMC buddy- John Hewitt "The Model 12 as a way of life"-- good reading indeed.

A few of the readers of this forum have challenged my professed knowledge of the "Perfect Repeater" Fair enuf-- There is one error in the Madis book I have quoted-- I'll sent a Cabela's gift card to the first man who correctly spots it, and contacts me with the right answer before 1/Jan/2020 . In the spirit of the Holidays, here's a hint. The late bandleader Phil Harris shot a 28 gauge M12-often hunted doves with his pal "Der Bingle"--Crosby shot a Purdey--RWTF