March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
7 members (gasgunner, SKB, ChiefAmungum, Roundsworth, 2 invisible), 307 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,373
Posts543,980
Members14,389
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 44 of 97 1 2 42 43 44 45 46 96 97
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 510
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 510
Originally Posted By: Argo44
Dustin, I'll answer that like I did the "where are their ranges" or "did they produce military guns" questions relying on 19th century sources not 20th century opinion. By the way, you haven't answered one of the questions I've asked of you. I taken note of your objections, now please give it a rest and give me liberty to continue the research.


Give you the liberty to continue your research? Did I take it away from you? When did that happen? My goodness, if I ever took away your liberty, Im extremely sorry!! I had no idea I ever took it from you in the first place. Well....Im as confused as ever.

Youre seriously asking me to give it a rest? Really? Isnt that rich.
You literally post here almost every day. On the same topic. Same gunmaker referenced even if its someone else post on guns not related to Reillys. I dont think Im the one that needs to give it a rest. Gene, you should seriously take some time off, enjoy your family and the holidays. Staying up till 2 am worrying about what someone post on here or disagrees with you on isnt healthy let alone sane.
Take it easy man...breathe deep, exhale slow. Everything will be ok. Have a great Holiday season.

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
Thanks Dustin. It's 9:30 PM here...at the age of 75 I've gone back on contract once again. If I post late at night it usually means I'm abroad - and I've spent 25 out of the last 50 there. And if I comment on other makers' guns, it's only because I have compiled a database of every extant Reilly and think there might be something in those serial numbered guns, which I've now been able to date, which might be relevant. That's it.

This line is about Reilly. When I find something I put it here and synthesize later. Try not to be so angry...I'll be answering your questions and I pay attention to disagreements and logical arguments - for a historian those are important - you have to be able to defend your thesis. and Merry Christmas. Gene

Glad you noticed the position on Oxford Street of Reilly and Purdey...now that was subject of mistakes by virtually every 20th century author. So something comes out of this.

(Edit: For those who think it took a massive building to be called a "factory," take a look at Purdey's building at renumbered 287-289 Oxford St. - it housed the manufactory, the retail spaces and the office. It was about the same size as Reilly's second building 277 Oxford Street.)

Edit: Oh by the way...on that Gavin Gardiner "Reilly action" I got up because I was just plain excited not because of some post. You see...it wan't me who identified it as a "Reilly action"...nor was it Gavin....it was the consigner and the consigner insisted on it being so identified in the auction. Why? There had to be a story behind it ...there was history behind this sale - one can smell it - (Who made it? Where - Birmingham or London? When and why was it acquired? by whom?) and I hope Gavin will ultimately put me in contact with the consigner for that story.

Last edited by Argo44; 02/02/20 11:02 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531
Likes: 18
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531
Likes: 18
Argo44,
I share your level of passion but for the guns of William Powell.
From my corner of the world please know that I appreciate all
your technical posts.

Larry Shelton, the author of California Gunsmiths: 1846 to 1900
and J.P Clabrough was my shooting partner until he passed last
November. No new discovery about our passions was too small
to hurriedly share with each other. I miss him.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456
Likes: 86
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456
Likes: 86
Originally Posted By: LeFusil

Youre seriously asking me to give it a rest? Really? Isnt that rich.
You literally post here almost every day. On the same topic. Same gunmaker referenced even if its someone else post on guns not related to Reillys. I dont think Im the one that needs to give it a rest. Gene, you should seriously take some time off, enjoy your family and the holidays. Staying up till 2 am worrying about what someone post on here or disagrees with you on isnt healthy let alone sane.
Take it easy man...breathe deep, exhale slow. Everything will be ok. Have a great Holiday season.


It's long past a Reilly obsession....it's become a Reilly demonic possession.

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
Another new label:

This is from Holts 2 Jan unsold lots...it's from the case of a pistol:
Lot 2121: A CASED 30-BORE PERCUSSION BELT-PISTOL SIGNED REILLY, MODEL 'SIDEHAMMER BOXLOCK', no visible serial number, with signed octagonal 3 1/2in. barrel, engraved radiused sidehammer action with guarded trigger, chequered bag-shaped grip and captive ramrod, in a later wood case with accessories.



Note the first use of "Reilly" and the experiment with the wavy lines which carried forward to later Reilly labels; The "Gun Maker" font carrying over from the earlier label, and the first experiment with a slanted font "London." It's all pretty "cartoonish"...and the ad says a "later" case so it's possible this was someone's personal art to recreate the label - (if so pretty damned neat) - but I believe it's possible this was a transition label between the "J.C. Reilly" "Removed from Holborn" "business card" label pictured on two guns from 1847 and 1848



....and the new label with the sketch of 502 New Oxford street the earliest of which is found on the case of an 1851 Adams revolver:



I'll be updating the label cheat sheet on p.34...two new labels found in two months....both transition labels that add a lot. There are always things to uncover.

Edit: This from Holts about the label -
"Hi Gene, I do believe it is a homemade drawing which as you say is pretty well done but I dont think genuine."
(signed) Josh Pover, Gun Room, Holt's Auctioneers)
Josh <josh@holtsauctioneers.com>

(yet I keep wondering...might this be EM's original art for his idea of what was to become the Reilly 1849 label? Far fetched...but possible. If objects could talk)


Last edited by Argo44; 01/09/20 10:09 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
About 20 pages ago I commented that Reilly stocks and engraving were almost instantly recognizable to me (being a Reilly historian and having looked at every extant Reilly). Just to demonstrate...and this doesn't mean squat intellectually - just artistically...it just looks very familiar..
. . . . . .16765 (1871) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The un-serial-numbered Reilly made for Oakes & Co., Madras circa 1890 (pictured above)


And yes...the engraving along with the elegance and wood of the stocks and the gun balance do indeed identify a "Reilly house style" (as much as can be attributed to a gun maker that built as many different types and calibers of guns as Reilly did in the 1860's) as was commented on by several writers. It's not quantifiable...but it is an artistic judgement.

Last edited by Argo44; 02/08/20 12:13 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
====================================================================
2000+ hours of research.


Work is currently being conducted on British census records, 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891, primarily, going through the London census manually which is taking some time. However, as the new year approaches here is what has been accomplished by this line over the last four years. Afterwards will move the three most important posts for most dealers and owners distilling:
1) the dating of Reilly trade/case labels,
2) the working, dated list of Reilly Serial Numbered extant guns, and
3) the latest version of the New History of Reilly - regularly up-dated, modified since it was published in Diggory Hadoke's on-line magazine.

Partial list of methodology and accomplishments:
-- Extant SN gun list: First, a list of extant Serial Numbered guns was compiled and difference between non serial number - serial numbered, long guns- hand guns understood, address/names on ribs recorded, patent use numbers noted, characteristics of each gun marked. etc.
-- Product list/dates: All Reilly advertisements and mentions in contemporary newspapers from 1825 to 1922 were gone over, new products noted and their dates, changes in names, addresses, references to their use, etc., including all Reilly exhibits at international exhibitions.
-- Shop locations/dates: Correct addresses, time periods of occupation and photos of Reilly shops and workshops in London and Paris were compiled and published - using primary sources from the 19th century - which including understanding the geography of 19th century London and Paris and the location of competitors.
-- Dating guns: Extant guns were dated using "marker dates" and the list was corroborated by "sanity checks," patent dates (researched extensively and compiled), dates on advertisements, etc.
-- Reilly labels: A library of Reilly trade/case labels was compiled and ultimately dated as best it can be.
-- General history written: Once this was understood, a general history of the firm was published correcting errors in every published account of Reilly over the last 75 years.

Note: this began as an ambitious attempt to create a chart year-by-year from 1825 on detailing what was happening to Reilly, Serial numbers, labels, family history, guns made, general UK history, history of the UK gun industry, melding in European history, metallurgy, advancements in patents...sort of a horizontal "what's happening" historical very-visual record that proved to be impossible to sustain or to create something that could actually be understood.

(I didn't have the talent....if anyone wants to read the greatest such effort in the world of historical scholarship...take a look at these thin, beautiful edited, map-centric books by Colin McEvedy - they are all one needs to understand Western History, society, culture, influence and should be in every library:

https://www.amazon.com/New-Penguin-Atlas-Ancient-History/dp/0140513485
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books...avid-woodroffe/
https://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Atlas-Modern-History-1815/dp/0140511539
https://www.amazon.com/New-Penguin-Atlas...XMHG2EA2BT9Z2SX

And along the way these topics were extensively researched:
-- Gun making under license: Reilly building guns under license from other patent holders such as Wesley-Richards, etc. was studied.
-- UK Patents and patent use numbers: A list of prominent UK patents used on historical UK guns and on Reilly's was compiled; An attempt was made to try to understand UK patent use numbers and payment for same.
-- Personal history: Personal elements contributed by a Reilly kin and by other knowledgeable authors were added once these were verified.
-- Military contracts: Reilly attempts to win a military contract from Arsenal over 1840-1870 was researched and published.
-- Center Break guns: Reilly very early involvement in making and promoting break action (Fusils a Bascule) pin-fires from the beginning of the UK center-break gun industry in the mid 1850's including his involvement in the "Field" trials in 1858, 59 was detailed.
-- Military breech-loaders: History of Reilly involvement in the attempt to get Arsenal to consider, then adopt breech loaders including petitions to reopen the 1853 adoption of the Enfield rifle-musket in favor of the Prince, and in the Arsenal sponsored breech loading competitions of '65 and '69-70' were researched.
-- Green Bros breech-loader manufacture: Reilly history of manufacturing Green Brothers patent breech loaders 1864-71 was reviewed.
-- Prince breech-loader manufacture: Ditto to Reilly history of manufacturing Prince patent breech loaders 1857-70.
-- Comblain manufacture: Ditto to Reilly manufacturing of the Reilly-Comblain breech loader 1867-1875.
-- Stocks and Engraving: Distinctive Reilly stocks and engraving style was researched and documented.
-- Yoemanry Militia: Reilly wholesale sales to Yoemanry Militia for 35 years was documented.
-- Shooting grounds: Reilly shooting grounds and gallery were identified..
-- Air gun library: Reilly history of air-gun/air-cane making 1841 - 1880's was detailed and documented and a photo library of guns compiled.
-- Royal warrant: Reilly attempts to obtain a royal warrant in 1862 mentioned (there is a lot more to this...) and his obtaining Royal warrants from Netherlands, France, Spain and Portugal.
-- Prosecution: Reilly prosecution for violating British neutrality in the Franco-German war of 1871 mentioned for the first time ever.
-- Foremen: Two Reilly foremen, one from 1861 and the other 1898 identified
-- Cartridge manufacture: Reilly involvement in manufacturing cartridges from the late 1850's researched.
-- Pigeon shooting: Reilly involvement in Pigeon shooting competitions and his manufacture of guns to Hurlingham specifications was extensively researched and reviewed.
-- Famous explorers/hunters: Use of Reilly guns by famous African explorers and hunters was gone over...including use by some of the most renowned hunters and explorers of the age.
-- Writers of the age: As was the use of Reilly's guns by some of the most knowledgeable gun-sport writers of the day, who were physically in Reilly's shops.
-- Bankruptcy: Date of bankruptcy in 1912 was identified and corrected.
-- Riggs: Date of the purchase of the Reilly name by Charles Riggs in 1922 was corrected., the serial numbers of the Rigg's guns identified, and a history of sorts of Charles Riggs was compiled (a lot of this not yet published).
-- Commercial sales-hand guns: Reilly commercial sales of pistols and revolvers reviewed, including his engraving of same and his importation of Liege guns in parts, which were assembled in his workshops in London.
-- Commercial sales-rifles: Reilly commercial sales of other rifles he did not make including Sharps, Winchester, Wesley-Richards, etc. was gone over.
-- Silver maker mark: His 1818 silver maker's mark was discovered and silverware and other items his jewelry shop made was published (there is more to this that hasn't been posted).
-- there are dozens of more topics that have been researched:
. . . . . - manufacturing processes,
. . . . . - barrel blacking and engraving,
. . . . . - tools used in mid-1800's gun maker shops,
. . . . . - anti-catholic prejudice at the time
. . . . . - history of UK princes who bought or gave Reilly guns.
. . . . . - waisted bullets - origin, use...flat trajectory advantages.
. . . . . - Worlds' Fair medals
. . . . . - militia organization,
. . . . . - gun-club rules and organizations,
. . . . . - pigeon shooting rules,
. . . . . - silver-smith requirements,
. . . . . - history of jewelers making guns,
. . . . . - gun permit fees,
. . . . . - history of the Arsenal 1865 and 1869-70 breech loading competitions,
. . . . . - history of UK military rifles,
. . . . . - Pretty much the history of Western Europe in the 19th century, especially France of Napoleon III and its poetry.
. . . . . - London Proof House history, records
. . . . . - Dating the EM Reilly authored air-gun pamphlet...etc.

-- And prima facie evidence was presented that over 90 years Reilly was more than just a "retailer!"

Will advise additional facts as they turn up.

And for all of you who have contributed to this history (I've repeatedly changed the chronology based on new information from this board), welcome additions or objections/dissensions to this narrative. Opinions are ok but history would prefer facts - thanks. After all, this is UK gun history and is very much a work-in-progress.


Last edited by Argo44; 02/08/20 12:58 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
Trade/Case label compendium moved from p.34 and updated:
For those selling, researching Reilly's - a simple Reilly label cheat sheet to accompany the "New History" above. (It's discussed in more detail in two previous posts). This is not written in stone - a label for EM Reilly & Co., Gun Maker (Oct 59-Aug 60) (6 below) was used on a gun case housing a gun dated 1863 (#12960). But it will get you close:



"Outlier labels" - all with "Gun & Rifle Manufacturers" on the labe (post 1869)l


Reilly Presentation Case labels:- Note change from "Gun Manufacturers" to "Gun & Rifle Manufacturers" to "Gun & Rifle Makers"; All using the exact same Fonts over 40 years.


This is a "custom" case/trade label for 23577 (1883) pictured above.


Holt's believes this Label for a side-lock o/u muzzle loading pistol is homemade, not printed thus not part of the chronology. (Yet per above one must wonder who made this. Might this be E.M.'s original art for his concept of the new 1849-50 time-frame Reilly label?)


Last edited by Argo44; 01/09/20 10:11 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
===========================================================================================
1820-1912 - Extant Gun Chronology - moved to P.57

Last edited by Argo44; 05/27/21 08:12 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133
Likes: 309
===========================================================================================
1820-1912 - Extant Gun Chronology Part 1 - moved to P.57

Last edited by Argo44; 05/27/21 08:13 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Page 44 of 97 1 2 42 43 44 45 46 96 97

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.079s Queries: 36 (0.055s) Memory: 0.8957 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 11:52:59 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS