doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Premium for 10gas?

All else being equal, is there a premium for 10ga SxSs like there is for 16gas relative to a 12ga?

I have not made a study of it, but in watching sales for many years my impression is that, condition and rarity being equal, there is no premium for 10s, as compared to 12s. The market is just too limited for short chambered 10s for them to command a premium. JMHO.

SRH

Stan, thanks for your insights. Not to disagree with you though, all else being equal (grade/quality of gun, condition, etc.) aren't 10gas generally more rare than 12gas? As in fewer 10gas were made as Lefever F grades than 12gas, yes? All that being as it may, you're saying you still haven't noticed a difference in pricing?

Sincerely,

Vince

The Ithaca NID magnum 10 ga. 3.5" commands a premium over an NID 12 ga, but not the 12 ga. built on the 10 ga. frame with serial numbers 500,xxx. Only 87 or so 3" magnum 12's were built. Gil

No, not much difference in value these days as the market has
changed significantly as we old fellas die off.

That being said, My old pre-500,000 10 gauge NID may have a bit more desirability than a 12 gauge

Mike

Glad you brought up Lefevers. As I recall without Elliott's book handy, approximately 70% are 12 ga., 15% are 10 ga., 8% are 16 ga., 6% are 20 ga., and less than 1/2% are 8 ga. I'm sure those numbers are close, but not perfectly accurate. But nobody knows for certain because the factory records are lost.

From what I have seen, the small bore 20 and 16 ga.guns command a healthy premium over a 12 ga. in equal grade and condition. But 10 ga. guns have little to no premium over the 12 ga. guns. Asking prices for 10's may be higher, but in no reserve auctions, they don't get the kind of money that their rarity might suggest. I've followed their prices for years.

8 ga.guns are so rare that even though ammo is much more expensive and harder to find, collectors will pay a huge premium for them.

I agree with Stan & Keith. The only premium when it comes to a majority (ultra rare grades/models being the exception) is.....the ammunition. The ammunition can be painfully expensive for old 10�s. If you roll your own, and you find a 10 bore with game gun weight and dynamics (they exist...I owned a light 10 bore T. Woodward spiral spring a few years ago), they can be pretty sweet guns. Most 10�s will be fowling pieces, btw. If you look around you can find some great deals on old, extremely high quality 10�s, and more than likely they�ll be priced cheaper than the equivalent 12 bore.

I believe that on the Lefevers guns built prior to the 1890 patent, Two-Hook style the 10 was about as common as the 12. This was also about the time smokeless powder was becoming acceptable. As time went forward, fewer & fewer 10s were built in proportion to the 12s, thus the differences in percentage.

This same timeline is likely applicable to other makes which were building doubles prior to the 1890s as well.

I'm not including rarity in the equation, Vince, as in low production models. They may well be priced higher. One reason run-of-the-mill 10s do not command a premium, even though less may have been made than 12s, is the ammunition issue LeFusil mentioned. I completely agree with him. Very few want to go to the hassle of rolling short tens, or buying expensive short loads, just to get to shoot a 10. I've done it, soon tired of it, and swapped the gun off. The supposed gain in pattern quality by having a shorter payload in the bigger bore just isn't worth the hassle or extra cost. Add that reason to the limited usefulness of so many big 10s and it adds up to no premium for the short 10s.

SRH

I love my short tens! Have three Parker 10�s and one hammer Scott 10. Loading is no more of a problem than any other gauge. Twenty or so years ago a group of 10 gauge fans joined together�I think right here on this forum�and called themselves the ten gauge group. Between them they tested and developed a lot of great loads. All the loads I use today came from them. 1 1/4 oz on ducks is unbelievable. 1 1/2 oz on a turkey is devastating! More shot would just be a waste. There is a whole lot to be said for the extremely short shot string a ten can deliver.

Long live the Short Ten!

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I will look at 10gas the same as 12gas in terms of value, now.

Ok- I'll take a shot. Why indeed does a 16 gauge command a premium over the same gun and grade over a 12? Here in MI- a visit to Cabelas will show a 35% premium in hunting loads of the "bastard gauge" over the std. 12- and as for steel waterfowl loads- forget about that-- hard if not impossible to find 16's.

Take a visit to a SD hunting lodge in late OCT-- pheasant and duck hunting galore- and survey the gauges used by the hunters-- or a visit to Stuttgart in late Nov. how many serious hunters are shooting 16 gauge waterfowl guns. Now up in NE, where grouse and woodcock might be the targets de jour- perhaps more 20's, 16's and 28 gauges are used, that might be different. RWTF

In reality there were somewhat fewer Ithaca NID Super-10s built than the Magnum-10s.

Charlie Price presented a paper on Parker Gun Gauges Over the Years at the PGCA 7th Annual Meeting and Conference held at Cleveland, Ohio, July 21, 2001. Parker Bros. 10-gauge production peaked in the 1881 to 1885 time period at 11,632 guns, but was still less than 12-gauge production of 14,470. In the five year period after the Super-10 load was introduced, 1926-1930 the Brothers P only produced 84 10-gauges. From 1931 to WW-II only 15 10-gauges were produced to 2848 12-gauges. No breakdown on how many were Super-10s and how many Magnum-10s. You can see these late steel barrel Parker 10-gauges are quite rare and do command a premium.

There are the type of exceptions as Researcher points out, but in general I think the 12 gauges bring more than 10 gauges, all else being equal. I think this is especially so in European hammer guns, especially British.

As long as we are on the subject of 10-gauges, has anyone found/seen/heard of a 10-gauge Remington Hammerless Double in a grade higher than CE-/CEO-Grade?

I shot my 10ga 2 5/8" at the Southern a few years ago. The event was a 50-shot outing and before sallying forth, I stopped by the RST tent to buy target shells. 50 shells = $50, $1 per shell. Upon inquiring as to the cost, I was told they have one employee on a MEC single press making these shells one at a time. The cost of shooting does deter my enjoyment of the gun as I do not have 10ga reloading equipment.

That is what Gauge-Mates are for. Can't remember the last time I actually shot a 10-gauge shell in one of my 10-gauges. Work just fine with my STS handloads

I have also used Gauge-Mates in my ten with good results, but always wonder if the 12 ga. wad allows a lot of gas leakage. Thoughts?

Yes, it allows some gas leakage, (A LOT I do not know), but not much effect on performance
I really like my Gauge-Mates
Does crease the hulls, but I have MANY hulls
Mike

Lot of trap shooters out there hammering away with a Stan Baker "Big-Bore" barrels that are .800" from the chamber to the choke.

Chamber reducers are the salvation of ten gauge owners. Little Skeeters are about the only ones still available, but I ordered a set of 10-12 last week and have them in hand now. I was just testing the water to see if they were actually still in business. I have some "in stock" but ordered more. I use reducers in all my eights and tens as well as loading real 8 and 10 gauge shells. I grind an area of the rim away on the reducer so I can remove the 12 gauge shell with my fingernail without ejecting the entire reducer.

Not a CE but I do have a 10ga BE with 32" C grade Damascus (Etoile 3BP, IIRC) barrels.

My limited experience has been that 10 gauge English guns are less expensive than similar quality 12 gauge guns. I collect more than I shoot, so I'm less impacted by higher ammunition costs for the larger bore. These comments are based on purchasing a William Ford, a WW Greener G-grade and an older Westley Richads.

Good luck finding an Ithaca NID in 10 gauge either a super or a magnum 10 for anything close to 12 gauge prices

On the topic of chamber reducers, wouldn't a waterfowl-type 10ga with reducers installed easily digest regular, modern 2.75" 12ga shells? In which case, a 10ga version of said Lefever F grade would represent a good value over a 12ga F grade because one could buy it for less and shoot it for less?