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#562205 - 01/08/20 07:57 AM JP Sauer & Sohn 12b Hammergun, any idea of age?
AnneUK Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 12
Loc: England
Hi folks,
I found this forum whilst trying to find out about a rather nice hammer shotgun I've just acquired from Holts auction. It's a J.P. Sauer & Sohn 12 bore with serial number 61458. The serial number appears to be stamped everywhere on the metalwork and the sides and barrels are all signed.
I confess prior to spotting the gun at auction and falling for its looks I knew very little about the firm. I subsequently contacted them (JP Sauer) to ask if they could tell me anything about it, and they obviously brought me up to speed with what happened; the firm being taken over post war and no archives surviving.
So...hence this post! I'd be very grateful if anyone could tell me anything about it. I gather from looking at other vintage Sauer shortguns online that there were different marks or models, but I have no idea what defined them?
Any thoughts on this one gratefully received!

[/img]









I've taken some photos of the areas that I hope are of use; though having just previewed this post Photobucket appears to have stuck whacking great logos across them all. Erm????

If it helps these are links to the same images through Flickr;

https://flic.kr/p/2ibXSUT

https://flic.kr/p/2ibUt3g

https://flic.kr/p/2ibWPC3

https://flic.kr/p/2ibWPDf

https://flic.kr/p/2ibWPEC

https://flic.kr/p/2ibWPGS

https://flic.kr/p/2ibWPLu


very many thanks
Anne

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#562206 - 01/08/20 08:20 AM Re: JP Sauer & Sohn 12b Hammergun, any idea of age? [Re: AnneUK]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8709
Loc: North Alabama
A portion of the Sauer ledgers do exists but are located in the Old Suhl Jail. Appears to be a War trophy & the serial number & English proof mark of >>Not English Make<< stamp will date it. The tubes wear the early Krupp 3 Ringe Stamp and I would guess the chambers are 2 5/8ths inch?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#562207 - 01/08/20 08:34 AM Re: JP Sauer & Sohn 12b Hammergun, any idea of age? [Re: AnneUK]
AnneUK Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 12
Loc: England
Hi Raimey,
very many thanks for the reply. I was intrigued by the rather enthusiastic "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" stamping on it! Holts detailed it thus; "29 1/2in. nitro reproved barrels (pitted), 2 1/2in. chambers, bored approx. 1/4 and full choke, treble-grip action, carved percussion fences, rebounding locks, border and bold foliate scroll engraving."
It's my first hammer gun as I fancied trying something a bit different without jumping straight into black powder. The graining to the stock is beautiful and it does have a lovely comfortable hold to it though I haven't taken it out for a proper play yet.

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#562208 - 01/08/20 08:37 AM Re: JP Sauer & Sohn 12b Hammergun, any idea of age? [Re: AnneUK]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8709
Loc: North Alabama
A Sauer example wearing 61xxx would have been issued a serial number circa 1896 and the >>Not English Make<< was used between 1925 & 1955, if my memory serves correct. So the longarm was more than likely a War Trophy taken to England and per law passed thru the Birmingham proof facility due to a lack of reciprocity between England & Germany. Lots of British Chicken-Scratchin' to sift thru but it appears that the hammer double wears the Sauer Quality Crown.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#562209 - 01/08/20 08:40 AM Re: JP Sauer & Sohn 12b Hammergun, any idea of age? [Re: AnneUK]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8709
Loc: North Alabama
I can't seem to view the service load on the underside of the right tube but I do see the >>Nicht für Kugel<<(Not for Ball) stamp on the underside of the left tube plus there looks to be 5 stamps of Wildmann w/ a Staff stamp(Sauer trademark & process mark).


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#562210 - 01/08/20 08:46 AM Re: JP Sauer & Sohn 12b Hammergun, any idea of age? [Re: AnneUK]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8709
Loc: North Alabama
Also, just above the 1st preliminary German stamp of Imperial Eagle paired with a Crowned S is another Wildmann w/ a Staff on each tube. Then there is another set of preliminary marks on the flats. With the new powders and new fangled steels, tube makers will a little unsure if their tubes would completely pass proof and they were to make up the whole of the lot should the tubes fail along the way. So early on they sent the tubes to the proof facility in mass before they sent them on their merry way.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#562212 - 01/08/20 09:50 AM Re: JP Sauer & Sohn 12b Hammergun, any idea of age? [Re: AnneUK]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8709
Loc: North Alabama
https://flic.kr/p/2ibUt3g


At 1st glance, I would say it is a lovely Sauer Modell Nr. 2 but with the >>12<< and >>5<< on the crossbar on the frame & on the flats just forward of the lugs, I wonder if it indeed is a Sauer Modell Nr. 5?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#562213 - 01/08/20 10:05 AM Re: JP Sauer & Sohn 12b Hammergun, any idea of age? [Re: AnneUK]
AnneUK Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 12
Loc: England
Thanks ever so much for that Raimey, I was trying to decipher the various marks and hadn't managed to get much further than the various initial proof, actual proof and viewed proofs which I'd initially assumed to be foreign (don't laugh, I thought the 'BV' might be for Bavaria rather than Birmingham UK). I'd completely missed the 5 'wildman' marks, is this the mark I've seen referred to as a 'caveman'?
1896 ish is great, makes it the oldest one I own by a few years.
very many thanks for all you've told me.
Anne smile

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#562214 - 01/08/20 10:08 AM Re: JP Sauer & Sohn 12b Hammergun, any idea of age? [Re: ellenbr]
AnneUK Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 12
Loc: England
Interesting, would the '5' there refer to the modell nr and the 12 the gauge?
This is probably a huge question that requires an answer equivalent to an entire reference text...but are there basic or fundamental features that differentiate between the different models?

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#562215 - 01/08/20 10:10 AM Re: JP Sauer & Sohn 12b Hammergun, any idea of age? [Re: AnneUK]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8709
Loc: North Alabama
Yeah, the Germanic folks have an aversion to the term >>Caveman<< I believe so I think we've settled on >>Wildmann<< with a Staff. I just flipped thru Jim Cate's text & for the 61xxx sequence he gives circa 1900. But with the Doll's Head & the Early 3 Ringe Krupp steel stamp it would date from the mid 1890s to 1900? I am still curious as to the load data. If you thumb thru the Sauer Crown's thread, there is quite a bit of info & I have the images still on Photobucket but I have not rectified my account as of yet.

Do it have a menacing muzzle or cross-hatching between the tubes on the business end?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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