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Forums10
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,883 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,883 Likes: 201 |
Interesting, would the '5' there refer to the modell nr and the 12 the gauge? This is probably a huge question that requires an answer equivalent to an entire reference text...but are there basic or fundamental features that differentiate between the different models? For the moment I would say so, but I believe the Sauer Modell 5's were as scarce as hen's teeth. The date of manufacture would have to be closely narrowed & then look @ the period Sauer catalogues. Then again the Sauer longarm may be contained in the Sauer ledger and all the info is logged there. Just a hop, skip & a jump from Frankfurt but I have yet to make the journey. There are collectors that have make the pilgrimage but I know not what pages they copied. Quite a bit of info is sorted here: http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-sauer-j-p/, http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/gun-indentification/and Herr P.O.(Per-Olof) Haggards is an authority & has a website. He just may answer that question..... www.sauerfineguns.comCheers, Raimey rse
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Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 12
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 12 |
Hi Raimey, I've just taken some extra photos, the muzzle doesn't look that menacing, it just has the same ribbed detailing to the rib between the tubes and a tiny bead sight; https://flic.kr/p/2ic3gRGI think I've managed to photograph the load details too; https://flic.kr/p/2ic2e31There are some additional marks on the tang that the forend mounts on which I hadn't noticed before, its like a stylised 'X' on the top face and some numbers or letters; S . S . F ? or S . S . u? and possibly two numbers slightly fainter to the left hand side 33? https://flic.kr/p/2ibYSFRhttps://flic.kr/p/2ic2e4yI've a friend who speaks fluent German so I'll see if we can send Herr Haggard an email. thanks for your time on this, it's been great learning so much so quickly!
Last edited by Womble; 01/08/20 11:50 AM.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,883 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,883 Likes: 201 |
I am not sure if P.O. Haggards speaks German or not. He may, I just don't know. You can either contact him direct or email me & I'll loop you to him.
Yeah, the lack of the spacer between the tubes @ the muzzle make me wonder if the tubes have been cut? Any idea of the length?
That touchmark on the forend lug/hanger is either a stylized K(pick your K mechanic) or L(langenhan?). S.S. may point to tube maker S. Schilling of the Schilling forge. We just don't have a Sauer mechanics list yet.
There's a WW on the water-table which probably denotes effort by a Wolf mechanic or some other W mechanic.
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,883 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,883 Likes: 201 |
https://flic.kr/p/2ic2e31PAPP.12-65.5,75 S.P. 34,5 BL. Papp.(Pappe(Cardboard) Cartouche Cal./Kal.)12-65, 5,75 S.P.(Dram Eq. Powder-Schultz Pulver), 34,5 grammes lead shot(Blei). Cheers, Raimey rse
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,488 Likes: 211
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,488 Likes: 211 |
The "Wildman" and the Crown stamps are "in house" Logo and quality stamps by Sauer and are not proof stamps "per se". The actual proof stamps from the Suhl proof house( Sauer guns were proofed there) have been overstamped and mostly obliterated. The fact that it has proof stamps dates it to post 1893. Suhl didn't date the proofs until about 1922, so if there is no date stamp under the British stamps, that would make it 1893 to 1922( if there is a date stamp, it would take a closer exam than possible with the photos to find it) If Raimey's assessment that it is a war trophy, reproofed in England is correct( highly probable), any date gleaned from those marks would not be helpful in dating the manufacture, rather it would be the post 1945 reproof. In about 1911, the German proof procedures were "improved" and the proof loads were replaced by "duty" loads. If the load data can be found, as requested by Raimey, 1911 can be added to the considered dates i.e. 1893 to 1911 or 1911 to 1922. Given Raimey's reading of Jim Cate's data, I vote for 1893 to 1911. This could change if Jim has a specific date or if finding the load data conflicts with it. Mike
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,538 Likes: 170
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,538 Likes: 170 |
USAF RET 1971-95
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,883 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,883 Likes: 201 |
Upon closer inspection, it appears that the tubes wear the following touchmarks:
>> Deutschland -- England -- Amerika 70343 -- 23495 --505006 <<
This was an expensive Sauer Patented Method of joining tubes & I believe the bulk were Krupp 3 Ringe Stahl? It also will aide in the dating.
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,488 Likes: 211
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,488 Likes: 211 |
Womble, I think P.O. Haggards speaks English. I have read some of his articles and they don't seem to be translations. Mike
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,883 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,883 Likes: 201 |
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjul...-lindner-49381/Yeah, if anyone can hang a date on the above Sauer - Lindner - Daly, it has the same Sauer Process Marks(less the HAL over Crossed Sidearms) and would be in the same time frame. Same Sauer Tube Assembly Patent - 1892 - Germany, 1893 - Amerika Looks like a the protection period for a German Patent was 15 years up till 1923? But I don't think Sauer continued the expensive process until 1907? Cheers, Raimey rse
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Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 12
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 12 |
I'm truly stunned by the amount of information you chaps can glean from all these marks! I've taken a couple more images of the barrel ends and rib, the underside rib looks far better fixed than the top one which has a noticeable smear of solder at the end. Might they have been shortened? The barrel lengths measure 74.5cm so 29 5/16". The rib towards the stock end has some noticeable 'crimping to it' which I assumed may have been down to it being in a vice at some point? Hard to say if they're squash marks or heavy dents. Underside of barrels at end https://flic.kr/p/2icqfTrWhole top rib https://flic.kr/p/2icqfTgdints to rib at end https://flic.kr/p/2ictPp6I've sent Her Haggards an email so eagerly await anything he can add!
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