doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Manufrance Ideal Grades

Would someone in the know please explain the grading system that was used on the Ideal? I got that production started after 1887 but I'm not sure when production ceased. Thanks, Mark

Would be happy to but it�s pretty complex and it changes all the time.

Production started in 1888 and ended in 1985.

More on the grades in a moment.

In the beginning Maufrance used a numerical grade system.

1888 to 1899 it was simply 0 through 8 for black powder proofs and 9 through 13 for smokeless.

They changed it in 1900 to all smokeless and the most commonly found system, the 2R, 3R, 4R type designations. As the numbers get higher the quality gets better. That grade type designation lasted until 1930 with some slight changes as the years went by.

From 1930 until they ceased production in 1985 Manufrance used a 3 digit model numbering system, always beginning with 3.

If you want more specific information, please post the question. Even though I'm pretty up to speed on Ideals, I find it too complex to remember the system except in general terms as above. I use a detailed chart when I want to identify a specific gun and where it fits in the program.

James,
I am pretty sure every French proof powder prior to the year 1900 was a semi smokeless powder. The first truly smokeless powder was powder T, which became the default proof powder in 1900. People could and did specify powder S or J after 1900. It took the proofhouse a few years to get proof with the new powder completely sorted, and powder S was a higher pressure proof at the turn of the century.
Powder T is used to this day. French proof is, by law, the highest in Europe.

I really don�t know anything about Ideals. At least not anything that matters.

Best,
Ted

Ted, while somewhat familiar with the whole French proof thing and the different powders, what I posted is the simple version of things and it's what is in Mournatas' book on the subject.

With a 5 palm set of unmolested barrels on my Ideal 6R EE, I shoot whatever the hell I feel like out of it. Hahahaha!

Mark, we've posted what is known of Ideal serial numbering and model numbering here:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199&page=11

Thanks guys! Is there a third fastener on all the dolls heads, or are they left off on the lower grades?

What grade or model have you got?

I don't have one yet, figured I'd try to get educated while looking for the best deal. Considering the limited supply I want the best I can get in my budget.

After lots of discussion and examining Ideals from different era's, I've concluded that the best workmanship comes on the guns built between the wars. That straddles the most significant grade/model name change that happened in 1930/1931.

That's not to say other guns weren't well made but I think pre 1907 guns are handicapped by the lunette trigger guards and the post war guns are a long slow slide in craftsmanship until the company ceased production and closed in 1985.

1907 through 1924 are 2R, 3R, 4R, 5R etc. The addition of E typically means ejectors. 6R and above are incredibly rare in NA although I was aware of one for sale 16 months ago. It may still be as I haven't seen it listed anywhere. I did handle the gun and while it had a couple minor issues, generally it was pretty good.

1924 through 1930 there are some slight differences but essentially similar.....wait till you find a gun you are interested in and then we can talk specifics.

Then in 1931 the designation changed to: 302, 308, 314, 320 and 326 with extractors while 332, 338, 344, 350, 362 and 368 where made with ejectors.

Ideals typically have a push-button forend release with ejectors and an odd, swiveling level on the bottom of the forend if extractors.

These designations lasted until the war.

Post war it changed again and on a cursory look seem similar, but they are all different numbers again.

What is consistent is that as the numbers get higher, so does the quality of the materials and the build.

French proof dates well back beyond the "Invention" of smokeless powder. Obviously former proof was done with BLACK.
Plese define Semi-Smokeless.

As I understand it semi- was a powder that was the same volume as black but was cleaner. An old Sears catalog I have refers to it as White powder. Anyone that has any extra Ideals they want to move let me know please, Mark

Kings semi-smokeless & Lesmoke were both true semi-smokeless powders in that they combined black & smokeless. All the Bulk powders I am aware of were straight smokeless. This includes such powders as Schultz, EC, Dupont Bulk & others. These should be simply classified as Bulk powders, not semi-smokeless.

Powder production, at that time, in France was a monopoly of the French government. Arms were proofed with black powder, until semi smokeless and true smokeless powder loads were developed. Powder J, including J1 and J2 and powder S, were in use beginning in 1896. Powders M, R, and S were in use in 1898, and powder T in 1900. Only powder T is a true smokeless powder, and an early problem was getting the new powders to actually develop the 12,000 psi minimum that was set by the Brussels convention.
If you are asking me to define the ratio of black to smokeless powder in early French produced powder and proof loads, I don�t have that information. You appear to have a clear understanding of what semi smokeless powder is, however.
The early semi smokeless powders used at the proofhouse, prior to powder T, weren�t in use very long.

I�ve never seen a French proofed barrel with 5 crossed palms, either. I know what four represent, triple proof with black powder, to 27,000psi. Try that with your sleever.
I have no idea what five crossed palms represent. But, I wouldn�t worry about what I shot out of it either.

Best,
Ted