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Hi Doc Drew, I'd suspect that if a scratch has a different grit coarseness and reflects light differently, it might very well appear to etch differently than the surrounding matrix.

Only guessing, but I don't think the various etching protocols are being used as a 'staining' process. The etching may be used for it's ability to remove some materials at a higher rate than others so that the resulting contrast can be visualized. The resulting image may(?) be all or predominantly steel that some other component or process cause it assume a shape that can be viewed? I'm guessing that by using different etching protocols of known capabilities, they can create an informed opinion of what reacted to the etch, but may not actually be present in the image.

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Drew,

I looked on the damascus site and didn't see the article "There's Danger in Damascus" by Major J.W. Houlden, June 1950. Do you have this posted somewhere?

Thanks
Ken

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Ken. I'm not sure where I found this, and it is an almost unreadable scanned copy, but here you go






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Thanks Drew. I couldn't read the first page, but could read the last 2 pages. I'm glad Sherman Bell did some testing and published the results in the Doublegun Journal.

Ken

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Originally Posted By: RARiddell
So you have all these photos and speculation about what you are looking at but where are your standards for comparisons for said conclusion? Right now you are sounding like Adam Schiff!


Adam Schiff has more integrity RARiddell. I'll bet Adam Schiff knows a lot more about steel too.

But what you said is very true, which means you may soon be a target of the Preacher's wrath and blasphemies.

I don't have time to elaborate tonight, but what I said earlier is being proven over and over:



All these impressive pictures of photomicrographs of steel that the Preacher keeps posting while running away from his silly and false statements like;

Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Oxidized debris = burned steel


Well, they only serve to show us how little the Preacher knows about this subject. Of course, he also thought that lengthening the chambers in vintage shotgun barrels could actually increase the barrel wall thickness at the end of the longer chamber. An eighth grade geometry student with a straight edge and no precision measuring tools could see the sheer foolishness of that goofy statement. But the Preacher went on and on in a similar frantic manner such as this for days, attempting to ridicule anyone who attempted to show his error.

Ask him to show you a real photomicrograph or Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM) image of steel WITHOUT any inclusions.

All steel has inclusions. So anyone could show us pics with these important and serious looking structures embedded within the matrix. I really like it when identical appearing structure keeps showing up at different times with totally different descriptions.

All steel is an alloy... which is another thing that the Preacher has shown us he didn't comprehend. And we just keep going back and forth on manganese sulfide inclusions too. Are they good or bad when found in gun barrel steel? The Preacher has been all over the map on them. Baffle them with Bullshit!

The photomicrograph that is purportedly from the hull of the Titanic raises many questions. How was it acquired? Did it come from the section that was fatally damaged by the iceberg? How can we know that for certain when the Titanic wreckage is over 12,500 feet deep? Has this been independently verified?

Most important of all is this... The Titanic weighed 46,328 tons. If we assume that the steel mill that supplied that steel had converters capable of even 100 tons per heat, that would be over 400 heats of steel. The furnaces were likely much smaller, so the number of heats would probably be much greater.

Does anyone with even half a brain think that one SEM photo or metallurgical analysis, or even a few, can accurately represent a true analysis of what was in over 400 heats of steel?


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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For those interested, here's a link to one of the article regarding the Titanic steel study...even with pictures of inclusions and stuff smile
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9801/felkins-9801.html

William knows perfectly well that impurities & inclusions in steel matter, and to argue otherwise is just silly.

The proper amount of non-ferrous elements can be a good thing however. Silicon and phosphorus can increase strength. Sulfur increases machinability (416-R stainless is resulfurized). Manganese can prevent iron sulfide and inclusions; in the correct amount and ratio.

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Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Ken. I'm not sure where I found this, and it is an almost unreadable scanned copy, but here you go



So happy Rev-Doc changed old ways of copying from the web with out attribution to the poster. Lately I see he tries to give credit where due. Thank you.

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Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Do you mean sections of turn-of-the-century barrels that did not burst? A valid criticism.
METL has been pretty excited about this and the previous pattern welded barrel study because there are very few images thereof in the metallurgical literature, and almost none of pattern welded barrels.

BTW and relevant. There are images of hull steel plate recovered from the Titanic. The “acid-lined open hearth” hull plate steel, from the works of David Colville & Co., was non-standard AISI 1020, with a slightly higher phosphorus, much higher sulfur, and lower manganese concentration. The tensile strength was 65,000 psi, and the low Mn:S ratio (6.8:1) made the metal more brittle in the cold temperature.
The photomicrographs showed “dirty steel” with both silicate, sulfide, and manganese sulfide inclusions.

This is from "There's Danger in Damascus" by Major J.W. Houlden, June 1950 "C-I-L Oval", a publication of Canadian Industries Limited and reprinted in the 1960 "Guns Digest". Obviously pre-SEM & EDX and of much lower resolution



Burrard published a few photomicrographs also


Adam Schiff? Really? Why is it so hard to discuss things on this Forum without personal insults RARiddell?


Still didn’t answer my question? What is your sample size, controls? Are you saying the Titanic is the standards for all steels? There are some bold statements but not seeing how you come to your conclusions. Adam Schiff comment wasn’t a personal attack, just a similarity to what’s going on here. It’s cool that you are interested in this and awesome that you are willing to share, I just don’t see how what you are showing is explaining what you are saying. Look I’m a man of science, you can get upset that I’m questioning you, but if you’re bringing up science in a double gun forum, we’ll you gots some splanin’ to do, Lucy!
Sincerely
Rick Riddell of that ilk!

Last edited by RARiddell; 01/22/20 07:40 AM.
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It is my opinion that Adam Schiff is a lying weasel, but we can move on.

As I said on p.3, your criticism is valid. I have no controls. David Scott's "Metallography and Microstructure of Ancient and Historic Metals" is available as a PDF, as are several "Atlas of Microstructures". I rely on the assessment of the metallurgist and metallurgical engineer at METL.

And BTW to my knowledge there has only been one other (unpublished) failure analysis (which I have read) of a pattern welded barrel, which also included a Parker Vulcan Steel barrels.
A summary is 1/2 way down here, as follows:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZnptAPvQIlWG5n5UU2FmKcFpYtVmOSc4b7K7G9IBs4g/edit

The pseudonymous Zircon posted “Contribute Junk To Advance Barrel Strength Knowledge” on two public internet forums in 2005 requesting vintage barrels for composition and strength testing. By 2006 he had accumulated almost 40 samples, both Fluid Steel and Pattern Welded. Part of the collection included the Damascus barrels from the Parker GH and the Vulcan Steel barrels from the Parker VH that had been the subjects of destructive testing by Sherman Bell, with the technical support of Tom Armbrust, published in The Double Gun Journal Vol. 10, Issue 4, Winter, 1999, “Finding Out For Myself” Part II and Vol. 16, Issue 2, Summer 2005, “Finding Out For Myself” Part IX.

Both guns were subjected to sequentially higher pressure loads at about 2,000 pounds/square inch (psi) increments. The GH testing started at 11,900 psi and one chamber ruptured at 29,620 psi. The VH started with a Proof Load of 18,560 psi. Both chambers bulged at 29,620 psi and ruptured at 31,620 psi.

I personally communicated with Zircon in February 2008 and he shared this information regarding his Metallographic Examination of the GH Damascus barrel:
“The forge-welded joints were 100% bonded. There was no indication of any kind of discontinuity, seam, inclusion of welding flux, or any other sort of defect along the welds; both between the…rods, as well as in the spiral weld where the skelp (ribband) was joined together around the mandrel.”

My last communication with Zircon (I believe a metallurgical engineer) was in 2015. He stated that it was still his intention to publish both his failure analysis and his metallurgical study of all the barrel samples in his procession. THAT would be a nice control study, but I agree likely not of statistical significance.



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It's a tough one RA. I don't think we even get to see the images let alone arm chair speculate if articles had to pass rigid scientific peer review.

There's occasional passing mention, but little more of suspected mountains of firearm blowup data within the industry. Beyond that, which I doubt will ever be released, it's going to be tough to get resources committed. Today, we treat a common sniffle much differently, but if a classic gun comes apart we reach specific conclusions based on sixty year old literature?

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