doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1893 UK - screws on fences?

What are these for?

I believe they retain the firing pins in the action.

I have a database of 450 extant Reilly's, which used just about every patent known to UK in the 1800's. But this is the only one I've ever seen with those screws. I will write to the firm advertising the gun about it...I can date the gun based on SN, comment on the label in the case. But those screws? WTH?

Look and see if they have a relatively tiny hole drilled in the center. They could be vents to keep a pierced primer from blowing out the stock.

DDA

I've looked for patent numbers on this gun.....niente, rien, nada.//unless it's been ground off? So who put those screws there and why?

The screws on the flats are right over the cocking levers, maybe a way to limit cocking lever travel?

I have a couple of early Clabroughs and they have screws in the fences. And yes, on these the screws retain the firing pins.

For some reason your pics didn't show until after I typed my post. Mine are hammer guns which yours obviously is not.

Those screws seem exceptionally large to be firing pin retainers, and on my guns that have such, the screws come in from the sides. These are really large and oddly placed in my opinion, but what else could they be? I like Rocketman's post. Great creativity.

I take it you do not have the gun in hand or you would have pulled them by now.

They are not striker retainers but the securing pins for the plate that covers the top of the extension to the top lever that engages with the barrel top rib extension. You need to remove the plate to dismantle the top lever/ Scott Spindle joint.
And that tell's you what you need to know about the identity of the patentee: you will find that the top rib extension has a square hole in it and the toplever extension has a square section 'hook' like bite. This is a Scott patent that covers a few variants of this basic design.
I sold a gun with the same plate not so long back, the details can be viewed here. Patent details are the bottom of the page. It is a commonly seen patent in guns made by Scott of this era.

http://heritageguns.co.uk/Leech%2012%20SLE%203274/Leech%2012%20SLE%203274%20Details.htm

Thanks Toby - fine explanation. If there is a patent use number on the gun somewhere, it would be interesting to find out when that use number was executed. Are patent use numbers for the Scott patent still on record somewhere? Who might retain these? (By the way, you do an excellent job listing patents etc. on guns you sell - would that others were as professional).

The above referenced Reilly is listed on Guntrader.UK:
https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/r...200227180805801

If the screws were pierced primer protection, I�d think they would not be directed up. In front of the shooter�s face. Other methods had the gases coming out lower to the side.

The screw heads on the flats are probably to retain the cocking limbs/rods .

Here's A WAG. Please excuse! Looks like the gun has been sleeved. Any chance this was once a hammer gun? Those screws sure look like they would fill a firing pin hole. I don't know much about English side locks, so be nice!
Chief

Not sleeved but new barrels were fitted sometime after 1896 and reproofed after 1954. The owner says that the original barrels were also steel. There is a Perkes ejector pat 10679-86 use #290 on the Action Flats.

Sure looks sleeved.

Learn something new everyday...that's why I'm here. Steve, I had always assumed sleeved barrels had to be stamped "sleeved"...like this Reilly 33454. Not so? Thanks.

at one point in time barrels were marked sleeved on the side of the chambers.
Steve

Ah...so 32658 had the barrels sleeved by Benjamin Wilde in Birmingham, not made?

And I see both those barrels have the faint remains of "nitro proof" - post 1896 proof mark on them. There is no way my chart can be stretched to accommodate either of those serial numbers 32658 or 33454 being post-1896. To do so would mean Reilly built only a a hundred guns a year after E.M.'s death in 1890 then suddenly built 2000 between 1896 and 1898. So, I've reasoned they were rebarreled in steel after 1896, then sleeved/reproofed at some point. In which case the actions and stocks shot out two sets of barrels...pretty good from the point of view of robustness.

And I still think Toby's explanation for the screws is most logical...Gunman backs him up. But I'd sure like to see a picture of what's behind those screws so I, the layman, can understand everything.

Gunman it totally correct, the screws on the flats are the retainers for the cocking rods which form part of the Perkes patent that you mention. This patent was bought by Scott and worked extensively by them. You will see it in early H&H No.2's, C&H and Blanch backaction SL's amongst many others.
If the gun is sleeved, the absence of any marking of 'sleeved' puts the gun out of proof by UK proof law. It might have been stamped on the barrel flats or on the side of the barrels and been struck out or maybe the gun was sleeved in the USA where of course no marking is required.
A44, you can always spin out those screws to remove the plate, they don't do anything else. Just make sure you have a well fitting turnscrew.

I'm not the sharpest blade in the drawer on gunsmithing/design. But here are a couple more questions.

Perkes Pat ejector 10679-86 was still under Perkes' control when trial on the famous 1893 lawsuit for patent infringement between Plaintiff Westley Richards (Deeley) and defendant Perkes was conducted. Scott was nowhere listed in the case so assume Perkes went into this alone?:

https://books.google.com/books?id=PakwAQ...ent&f=false


From this case, Perkes sold his pat ejector 1968-78 to Scott in 1880 but it wasn't used much until 1886 per testimony of Scott.



Here are two Reilly's using the follow-on Perkes patent 10679-86, subject of the law-suit:

-- the above SN 32658 dated per my chart to circa Jan 1893 - 10679-86 use #290 with screws on the fences.


-- and SN 33619 dated per my chart to mid 1895 - 10679-86 use #540 with no screws on the fences:


So the question for this novice is...if the screws are the result of having the Perkes 10679-86 patent ejector on the gun, why screws on one and not the other?

(The general subject of patent use numbers, who paid for the patent use and when and how-much, and who might have the records, important for a historian, will be subject of a separate post)...

Those two screws really detract from the visuals on that gun. Perhaps that spurred them along to quickly finding a modification that fixes that issue.

You are confusing the two different pairs of screws. The ones on the action FLATS are to do with retaining the cocking rods mentioned in the Perkes patent. The two screws on top of the fences are a Scott patent concerned with 3rd bite top rib extensions.
The spat between Perkes and WR was only about the ejector part of the patent, not the cocking rods and anyway Perkes prevailed even though it bankrupted him. As a result he sold the patent, cocking system, ejector et al to Scott who were then free to work it.

Ah...yes...that's it. Thanks. I'll search for more info about that Scott patent for my own edification. There are a lot of Scott patents I've been looking at for fun (you all know this subject - I'm still learning). Is there a number? It'll make searching it a bit easier - one of these?
1878 - W.C. Scott & sons patent 761 - coil spring, treble grip, back action hammerless lock
1879 - Ellis & Scott action, patent No 2816

Similar to the 1873 Greener wedgefast system?


Do all guns using that patent have screws on top of the fences?

I read through that entire Westley-Richards/Perkes case. Really interesting seeing who was there testifying and reviewing the arguments. Interesting to see the arguments that the Deeley patents couldn't work as taken out.

As said above, go to the bottom of the page of info on this gun and the patent date and number are there.

Toby, thanks a lot. Your site always is the most professional. Now, you're going to get a bit irritated with my ignorance. But these questions are important to me and the research I'm conducting.

When you list a series of patents like the ones on the linked gun (posted below),
-- Are these patents stamped on the gun in question or did you recognize them and identify them based on experience? i.e. What patents are physically stamped on that gun?
-- Were these patents still in force at the time a gun was built - in this case 1893 (I assume UK patents expire after 14 years with exceptions?) or were they public property at the time the gun was built?
-- Are there patent use numbers stamped on these guns in addition to the patent numbers?
. . .-- if the patent has expired then obviously no patent use number and probably no stamp at all.
. . .-- If the patent were held by the firm which built the gun, and was still current, would they place use numbers on the patent stamp? !!
(I's difficult to cotton to the possibility that a company building a gun with its own patents would put a patent use number on it which would require payment of royalties. ...Then again - corporate voraciousness could lead to this sort of double-tax. - Jeep makes Wranglers and charges extra for engines, Bose speakers, etc.)

I'll make a separate post soon asking questions about patent use numbers (and building some graphs dating use numbers of certain popular gun patents based on their links to dated guns) but the above questions are important, not so much to the shooter maybe, but surely to the academic and the historian. Many thanks.

Here are the patents listed on the gun referenced by Toby:
http://heritageguns.co.uk/Leech%2012%20SLE%203274/Leech%2012%20SLE%203274%20Details.htm



Patents Exhibited include:
'Purdey Bolt' patent no. 1104 of 1863;
'Scott Spindle' patent no. 2752 of 1865;
Perkes cocking rod patent no 1968 of 1878;
Scott's gas check patent no. 617 of 1882;
Scott's top extension patent no. 1902 of 1875;
Perkes ejector patent no 10679 of 1886;
Deeley's ejector patent no 14526 of 1884;
Scott forend lever catch patent no. 615 of 1876.

(And of course the follow-on..."Do all guns that have that Scott top extension patent 1902-75 have those screw caps on the fences?" I've searched and searched...and can only find these two guns...odd but the search is a difficult one bringing in all sorts of extraneous stuff)

I set this message to Toby and I'll make a separate line on this topic:

This is a crude example of what I'm thinking. I've got four data points for Purdey Patent 1104 use numbers bought by Reilly. I have dated the guns theoretically. 1104 was taken out in 1863 and presumably became public in 1877. Here is the graph based on those four data points of when Purdey use numbers should appear....

if everyone who had a firmly dated gun of whatever brand/name would post the use number (along with the date of the gun), the graph could be refined and we could date guns by the patent use numbers with near certainty:



If someone in UK could mobilize GUNSTAR, GUNTRADER, and the major auction houses to simply look at the guns and record the data....a lot of this UK gun history could be recreated. (maybe it's redundant...perhaps records exist but as I said on the Reilly line, Purdey can't respond on who paid what and when for Patent 1104 - the records are literally locked up).

Argo44:

Do many of the Reillys utilize the W & C Scott 'Gas Check', No. 617 of 1882? If so, purportedly those wear a patent use number between the strikers and might aide in your dating effort?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

My impression is that as simple as Scott Gas Check Pat 617 is, it is one of the most effective. One would assume it was used pretty universally after it came out. But, I can't find a single extant Reilly in my database with the patent listed on the gun. That doesn't mean it isn't there....just that it was not listed.

I do have 3 guns with Scott Patent 761 of 1878 with patent use numbers on them which I'll make a graph of...and 5 guns with crystal indicators (but without use numbers or patent stamp that I can see - perhaps this is stamped on the plates?). Anyway, use numbers are one of those little important bits of data that gun sellers mostly omit.

I'll check my own 16 ga (1886) to see about Pat. 617. My 12 bore is 1898 and the patent would have expired.

If the PUN is absent, it is said that it was worked off by a mechanic. By the way, the Italians employed the Scott Gas Check in their wares.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hope I am not damaging the thread about the fence screws too badly, but does the Anson & Deely Patent Use number 1385 as stamped on the action flats of my fairly old Greener Serial No. 19979 refer only to the latch for the fore end? When was this patent issued?

I've only recently started enjoying looking at 19th century patents. I try to find the original patent and then read through it including the drawings...if I have a hard time understanding something I send it to my mechanical engineering professor brother. Reimey, Steve, Toby...and a bunch of others on this board are much more knowledgeable.

But I think you'll need to post the patent number...not just the use number. With the patent number, a determination can be made. Here are 3 fore-end fasteners from the 1872-73 era from my simplified database:

1872 - Anson patent 3791 - fore-end fasteners
1873 - Deeley patent 1422 - fore-end fastener
1873 - Scott patent 615 - �key� fore-end fastener

Well, I'm to blame too...Never looked at the face of the action on my Reilly 16bore 27853 (dated 1886). Scott gas check patent is there...use nr. 1953:


Which means its twin 12 bore 27854 probably has the next stamp up or near to it:
27853 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Paris Improved Patent. 16 bore, Shotgun SxS. Dolls Head; Side-clips; S-L, Scott climax action Pat 761 use #2112, Perks, crystal indicators, Scott gas check 617 use #1953, Whitworth Steel barrels, 1st of pair. Argo44�s gun . "Not for Ball"
27854 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Paris Improved Patent. 12 bore, Shotgun SxS. Dolls Head; Side-clips; S-L, Scott climax action, Perks, crystal indicators, Whitworth steel barrels, 2nd of pair. (Buffum)

I also see the Scott "climax action" pat 761 with a use number 2112.


Where might the patent use numbers for crystal indicators be found? Behind the plates?

In my experience of A&D guns, the individual mechanisms in one of their guns carried the Patent stamp and or Use number associated with THAT mechanism. So the Gas Check carries it on the breech face, the action carries it on the action flats, the Deeley & Edge forend catch is stamped on the lever's side. What you need to remember is that there are several different patents at work in the firing mechanism of an A&D boxlock, not just the original leverwork: one patent for the basic leverwork, another patent that includes the new spring shape that trips the ejectors, another that covers the 'dicky bird' safety, another that covers the interceptor sears. If no patent number is quoted (and it often isn't) the use number could refer to any of the above.
In the example of an AJ Russell BLE I restored, it exhibited the following:
Anson & Deeley's boxlock patent no. 1756 of 1875,
Anson's interceptor sear patent no. 4089 of 1882,
Deeley's ejectors patent no. 4289 of 1886,
and given a patent life of 14 years, unless you knew which patent is being dealt with, that could place the gun between 1875 and 1900, not hugely helpful!

A44, I completely understand your yearning for a way to date guns from a Maker with non-extant records, I tried for years to do the same for Blanch but I fear you are entering a mine field of conflicting purposes for different Patentees and all sorts of financial shenanigans between the Big Names.
You will see far more patent stamps on guns by Scott and Westley Richards than any other maker as they were major inventors (or purchasers of patents) who sold huge numbers of guns to the trade to be retailed under the 3rd party's name. In fact Scott sold almost nothing under their own name in Britain, preferring to have a domestic business model that supplied guns to the trade. In contrast they sold a majority of guns for export under the Scott name.
As regards the use numbers and patent stamps applied by Scott, I think they were used as a way of checking that guns in circulation had used a patented mechanism with their permission (whether or not a royalty had been paid) and were nearly always applied by the Patentee, not the retailer. The most obvious exception to this is the Scott Spindle, the stamp for which you rarely see on anything but the earliest examples although it was used extensively and royalties charged. I think the exception reflects the deal done by Purdey with Scott whereby Scott got to charge royalties on the Purdey Bolt and their spindle for provincial makers (and export?) while Purdey got to charge royalties for the Scott Spindle and their bolt for London Makers.
Furthermore, the common practice of issuing blocks of serial numbers to trade makers for guns to then be retailed by the 'Maker' could very well have been used in reverse, issuing blocks of Use Numbers to a Maker for their exclusive use. In fact I have seen Gas Check Use Numbers with a letter prefix of 'H' on some H&H guns. In fact I think it equally likely that Scott supplied batches of ready stamped actions (receivers to you) to Makers which may have been used to produce that model of gun over a period of years, if not decades. An example is the 1st type H&H Royal which always (famous last words!) has the Gas Check but was actioned, stocked and screwed in many cases by John Robertson of later Boss fame in his independent Soho workshops. These almost identical guns were made from the late 1880's to mid 1890's in substantial numbers.

Had to check again. Yes it does say Anson & Deeley's PATENT(not USE) number 1385. Nothing on the forend iron.

Hal, it may just say Patent but that is the use number. A&D didn't have a patent number 1385.
And the forend catch is marked on the catch lever not the forend iron.

This is from my James B. Warrilow, c 1890. I was under the impression it was the 7221st action A&D licensed to a maker to use.

Thanks! My lever reads "Deeley & Edge" on the right and "patent" preceded by a rectangular mark on the left. So now we know what was patented, but still need the patent year for your research?

https://books.google.com/books?id=lvBk8df8PjUC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=deeley+%26+edge+patent&source=bl&ots=VoeUF0Y-Kp&sig=ACfU3U0dJYLeyrsMBaaHr-xiUiJPT_qJ4w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwighua-tIzoAhWNhXIEHQKSAVw4ChDoATABegQICxAB#v=onepage&q=deeley%20%26%20edge%20patent&f=false

Thanks that is it. Must have had a patent number.

1873 - Deeley patent 1422-73 - fore-end fastener

Hal, I have never seen any number stamped on a D&E forend fastener, inside or out, just the 'DEELEY & EDGE' and 'PATENT'.

I saw no number either. Was just wondering if there is a registered patent number for the fastener type now that the year has been shown above. Or do patents in Great Britain require no number in addition to the patentees names and the year?

Deeley & Edge forend fastener patent no. 1422 of 1873 as posted by A44 above. Yes, we have a number and a date.

OK thanks missed that. Does not seem like a lot of patents. When was the first issued? What was the first patent involving non-military firearms?