doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com History needed on British double

I am looking to uncover some information on the maker of my double, a standard 12 bore boxlock that was made in England. The maker's name on the rib is "A Lancaster." What can you folks recommend as good sources of information?

Thanks,
Ed

Alfred Lancaster joined his brother, Charles William Lancaster in 1855 to form Charles William & Alfred Lancaster (successors to Charles Lancaster).
The partnership lasted only until 1859 when Alfred opened up on his own at 27 South Audley Street. In that year he patented a breech mechanism and cartridge charger (No. 2753).
In 1865 he patented a breechloader with linked firing pins (No. 1525).
In 1886 the firm moved to 50 Green Street, Grosvenor Square.
In 1890 Alfred died, and in 1892 Charles Lancaster & Co, run by H Thorn, bought the firm. It was subsequently bought by Stephen Grant and Joseph Lang Ltd before being bought by David Perkins. The records of the firm are held by David Perkins of Charles Lancaster & Co Ltd, The Firs, Bishopswood, Somerset TA20 3RU; Tel/Fax 01460 234354.

Alas, Dave Perkins, who was a great gentleman and made some (a very few) of the finest guns ever to come out of the UK, died earlier his year. I'm not sure of what has happened since then. His wife Chris may still live at The Firs, but I haven't heard anything since the funeral.

Thanks much Turnagain.
It must then be that my double, a 12 bore, 2 1/2 inch gun with original barrels and nitro proofed, is over a hundred years old? This seems remarkable for a gun in this condition and proofed for nitro powder (and BP)without having been sleeved or rebaralled? I was estimating, based on above and having so much cc that the gun was about fifty years old? Would there be a way to fairly accurately date my double? Its SN is 4372.
Ed

Give a detailed description of all of the proofmarks that are on the barrel flats. Also give us the full address that's on the rib. Date can be narrowed down quite a bit from this info.

"BV" with crown above
"BP" with crown above
"NP" with crown above
"nitro proof"
number "12" and a small "c" beneath, both inside a diamond
"2 1/2 "
"1 1/8 oz"
The above are all exactly alike on both barrels, and in addition;

Right barrel - no choke marking (and it does mic accordingly)
- a fraction with a "13" over a "1"
Left barrel - an additional number "12" by itself(no diamond)
- "choke" (and does mic accordingly)
- very small symbol of crossed swords with a
letter "s" beneath.

And finally the rib is marked "A LANCASTER" in all caps.

I'm at work now but I'll look them up when I get home. Is there no address on the rib?

No. No address.
Thanks to all who helped.
Ed

BV with crown = Birmingham blackpowder inspection mark 1904-1925
BP with crown = Birmingham definitive blackpowder proof 1904-
NP with crown = English Nitro proofmark in use starting 1904-1925
12/c in a dimond = Birmingham 12 bore with chamber shorter than 3" since 1877-1955
1 1/8 oz = Proofed for 1 1/8 oz shot since 1904-1925
13/1 bore size since 1925 = .719 to .729
Small crossed swords with letter S = I have never seen this nor can I find in in my reference material.

Narrows it down to after 1904 and before 1925. Alfred died in 1890 and the company lasted only 2 more years. I don't see how this gun could be made by A Lancaster and have proofmarks only from 1904-1025.

I'd bet on two things here. One, no one named Lancaster built it, and two, it got the name Lancaster engraved on the rib to up the brand value. The Lancaster name was still kicking around in someone's shop - famous brand names die a very slow death. It seems to have been built around the high water mark of Birmingham BL production.

Mike, I get it even later than you do. Kennett has BV and NP good thru 1955. The 2 1/2" marking was also required after 1925. Looks to me as if it falls in the 1925-55 time frame.

The only thing that puzzles me is the small crossed septors(swords) which should be over a "v" or a "p", which was an older proofmark(up till 1904). Another question would be what is the provisional proof on the tube ahead of the barrel flats: the letters "BP" interlaced in a cypher surmounted by a crown or cross septors over a v? What is stamped on the watertable of the receiver. I agree that it's a Birmingham boxlock not made in London by Lancaster. A pic of the barrel flats and the watertable would do nicely.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have an Alfred Lancaster that I acquired a couple of years ago through Kirby Hoyt. It is a best boxlock sidelever with complete, beautiful engraving and an action that is as smooth as silk. It has “A. Lancaster London” on both sides of the action but no inscription on the barrel rib. I believe the barrel rib may have been partially replaced at one time because it is of two parts: the distal 7/8th of the rib is of a different metal than the beginning 3 inches of rib which contains the doll’s head for the breech.

By the serial number records in Nigel Brown’s British Gunmakers, this gun was made in 1886, probably at the Green Street address.

My specs on the gun:
Alfred Lancaster of London
#4343 No. 1 of a pair, circa 1886
2 1/2 " 12 ga. Sidelever Anson & Deeley Boxlock Extractor with Game Counter in the stock
29" London Nitro Proof Damascus Barrels (rebrowned by Buck Hamlin 2006)
Bores 0.731
Choke .005/.010
Wall thickness L.031 R.030
Wt. 6lb. 6 oz
LOP 15 1/4" to leather covered pad
Drop @ Comb 1 3/4"
Drop @ Face 1 15/16"
Drop @ Heel 2 7/16"
Cast @ Heel 1/16"

On the barrel flats are the original black powder proof marks: 1) the letters GP interlaced in a cipher and surmounted by a crown, 2) The letter V surmounted by a crown, 3)13M, 12B and 4)“NOT FOR BALL”. (I would be interested to know the meaning and significance of 13M 12B!)

Newer reproof marks include 1) NITROPROOF 1 1/8 and 2) the letters NP surmounted by an arm dexter holding a scimitar (the modern London nitro proof symbol introduced in 1904). No reproof date marked (i.e. reproof prior to 1972).

Most interesting is what is on the watertable of the action: “Anson and Deeley Patent 6950” which is apparently a patent use # for the Anson and Deeley action (which was still protected by an active patent in 1886.)

This is my favorite quail gun! (And I would love to find #2!)

Dr. P:

The London mark of 13M is a bore of 13 at the muzzle. The 12B is 12 at the bore. "Not for Ball" would put it between 1875 and 1887.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Dr. P:

Based on the 13M/12B the gun is choked.

According to the dimensions given in the table "Scale of Proof" on page 300 of Greener's "The Gun and Its Development", 9th edition,

0.729 is the nominal bore (12) and 0.710 (13) is the nominal muzzle. This is about 20 points of choke.

Regards

GKT

Could the "S" be the Birmingham date code for 1937?

Thank you Raimey and Greg!

So in this A. Lancaster's 120 years of use, the bores have been moderately lapped out as the chokes now measure .005 and .010. I should go back and re-measure the bores but when I purchased the gun two years ago they measured 0.731.

Interestingly, when it was nitro proofed a new bore dimension (for that proofing) was not stamped on the flats. I guess the proof house accepted 12B measurement as an accurate dimension.

Dr. P

Well it's a great gun none-the-less but a bit of air has been let from my baloon that we can't positively ID it. If photos might be useful, anyone interested in continuing to solve the mystery may send me their private address and I'd be grateful for the help. Send to yojo18840 at my Yahoo account. There are already photos on Hill Rod and Gun's web site, in Charlie's 'Archive' section of previously sold guns, but I can send close ups of the flats or the engraved maker name...
Ed

I guess I would also question why someone would have the name of a maker engraved who has long been out of business, if he were trying to fool people. The origin would be brought into question quickly when the date-specific proof marks were seen. If I were going to try something like this I would pick one of the numerous makers who were actually in business durring the time of the proof marks. No? I would have guessed that British criminals would have been smarter than this.
I will get some close ups shot for anyone who wishes to see them. See prev post for my address.

Beech:

How do you know the gun has not been rebarrelled? The SN seems about right for circa late 1880's A Lancaster, according to the example cited by Dr. P.

Rocket / Larry, et al:

Correct me if I am wrong, but if the gun has been rebarrelled, the new barrel set would bear the proof marks for the time of rebarrelling, would it not? Why would anyone fake a fair to middlin' London trade Brummie boxlock? It seems to fail Occams razor.

Regards

GKT

itb - Maker's names are like trademarks. A. Lancaster may not have been actively trading - as in a shop by that name when your gun was sold. However, you can bet someone held the name. "Lancaster" was famous and would have been more help to a gun than the name of some lessor known maker/shop owner/retailer. This was fairly common practice - consider that Thorne became Lancaster. There is no fakin' of the gun or the name, just an application that may slightly misguide modern buyers. Most Birmingham BL's bear the name of someone other than the actual maker. Keep in mind that Brit guns were made in a trade environment.

I have used Occam's razor and subscribe to that philosophy. But before I applied Occam's prinicple of the explaination being the simplest one, I would exhaust all efforts in researching all Birmingham marks, before, during and after the 1887 proof revision coupled with info like the above post regarding markers(retailers) and makers(builders).

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Greg, based on the information provided, I think rebarreling is a possibility.

Beech:

While rebarreling is certainly a possibility, I looked at your gun on the Hill Rod and Gun website and it does not look like either my boxlock or the A. Lancaster hammergun pictured here on the for sale board by Turnagain. Both his hammergun and my boxlock have A. Lancaster/ London on a scrolled banner on the side of the action, very similar if not identical engraving, and palm fronds engraved on the fences.

I am afraid I agree with Rocketman that you may not have an A. Lancaster. On the other hand, I am not sure that it matters a whit if you have a good functional bird gun that you paid a reasonable sum for. Just enjoy it!

Dr. P