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Argo44 Offline OP
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Updated History along with the SN date chart and footnotes moved to p.48

Last edited by Argo44; 06/11/20 08:55 PM.

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This gun made by Reilly for Oaks and Co. Madras mentioned a couple of times above, has no recorded serial number and thus the possible conclusions:
-- It was engraved, marketed, and retailed by Reilly but not built by him," or
-- It was built by Reilly but for another firm and thus not claimed (as at least one internet poster has maintained Reilly did for a number of London gun makers)
(-- or of course...the seller just forgot to put the SN in the ad - entirely possible - in which case it was indeed built by Reilly under license).



I'm still trying to understand how the UK patent use number licensing system worked in Britain in the 1860-90 time frame. Daryl gave an idea about how Westley-Richards handled licensing fees in an above post, but the whole subject area is murky.

From the description there is a reference to an "Ellis & Scots Patent" inscribed on the frame (no patent use number mentioned) (assuming "Scots" = "Scott").

Question:
-- Who was Ellis?
-- What patent might this refer to?
-- Was Ellis bought out by Scott?
-- If Scott built the gun for Reilly, would he have put "Scott Patent" on it?
-- If Scott only built the action, and sold it to Reilly would he have put "Scott Patent" on it?
-- If so, are there other examples of Scott built actions with "Scott Patent" on guns made by other makers?
-- or did Reilly pay for the patent and build it himself (in which case there should be a patent use number)?

Sorry for the pedantry, but this seems an important detail in understanding who built what component, when, in British gun history. And guns, all guns, Westley-Richards, etc., could and were built by other makers under license in the 1800's. Reilly sold Westley Richards rifles - he also built them himself under patent. (There were probably 50 makers of 1911 Colt .45's made under license...I can provide a list of these makers if need be to prove a point).

Here is the original ad for the gun:
Classic full side lock double-barrel 12ga shotgun with Damascus pattern barrels by E. M. Reilly & Co. London marked, manufactured for Oaks & Co. Madras (India). The gun shows 30-1/8” barrels, 46-1/2” overall with stock measuring approx. 14-7/8 from the front trigger to the end of the horn rubber buttplate. The gun shows standard extractors. The water table shows a series of English proofs and reproofs, 2-1/2” chamber, 3 grams black powder, 1-1/8 oz of shot. Proofed to 3 tons. Left barrel marked 740, right barrel marked 719. The gun shows a quality bank note scroll engraved frame with nicely rebrowned barrels showing 90% thinning, correct color old tobacco brown restored finish. The action has been lightly polished a satin grey, the top of the frame is marked “Ellis & Scots Patent” by the release lever. The trigger guard shows an old reblued finish of which the the trigger and other mounts show a 90 – 95% old flat reblued finish. The nicely burled stocks show refreshing long ago and are in very good condition with some small losses and light wear. The mechanism is tight and action good, bore is very good. A quality side lock London gun by a well-recognized maker. Est.: $3,500 - $7,000


Last edited by Argo44; 06/10/20 08:50 PM.

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From David Baker`s excellent book on Thomas Horsley.
Ellis & Scott patent No 2816 was by taken out by Richard Ellis gunmaker and Henry Scott ,gunlock and action filer in 1879,Subsequently bought by J.P. Clabrough in 1881/2 who protected the patent in U.S.A,as no.252703 in 1882.
Horsley abandoned the action pretty quickly after a number of catastrophic failures with high profile customers!!!!
Hth.

Much more detail is given in the book ,which is an excellent reference on Horsley guns but also gives an insight to the workings of the trade .

Last edited by Imperdix; 02/15/20 07:30 AM.
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Thank you sir: From an internet post, a history of Clabrough:
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=245239

Also in 1882, J P Clabrough Brothers obtained the US manufacturing rights to a hammerless thumb-cocking action (UK patent 2816/1879 Richard Ellis & Henry Scott, USA patent 252703/1882 Henry Scott assigned to J P Clabrough) but it too was unsuccessful. However, the firm also obtained a license to manufacture for sale in the USA the John Thomas Rogers and John Rogers patent sidelock barrel cocking mechanism (No. 397/1881). This mechanism became the most popular sidelock cocking mechanism.

By 1892 the trade with America was declining for British makers, in part because of the McKinley Tariff. But also because of the stiff competition from Belgium where the labor rate was lower and industrialization of the gun industry was in full swing
.


The question, as always, is who paid for the action patent use? Where are the records? I'll assume based on this educated reply that this Oaks & Co. shotgun made by E.M. Reilly was made in the early-mid 1880's...not the late 1880's I'd assumed it to be. Still...it's a fine looking gun with a modern feel and top lever.

I've researched numerous Reilly patent payments to Purdey - these records are literally under lock and key protected by the family apparently. I don't understand the legal problems but others do. So in trying to understand whether Reilly payed royalties for guns he produced, I'm pretty much down to Henry patent rifle barrels, a number of which are recorded on Reillys per above. I'll be researching where this info might reside.

The search continues. Again thanks.

Last edited by Argo44; 02/17/20 09:34 PM.

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There is an interesting sidelock 12ga SxS Reilly shotgun that just appeared on Guntrader.uk...(which references this website) SN 32658:
https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/r...200227180805801
"There is a web site dedicated to E.M.Reilly guns and I have managed to find out this gun was made in 1895."

Why the screws on the fences?



For more see this line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=566282#Post566282

Last edited by Argo44; 03/04/20 08:51 PM.

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================================================================================
8578 x 2


Holt's at their March 2020 sale advertises this Reilly 6 bore single muzzle loader fowling piece for sale, SN 8578 with "Reilly, New Oxford St., London" on the rib:
https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/as...046&image=5


There's a problem. A Reilly SN 8578 already exists in my records from a Swedish auction site; It has an original case with very interesting original trade-label, "JC Reilly, New Oxford St., Removed from Holborn." I have it listed as one of the earliest guns made by Reilly after their move in late March 1847 to New Oxford St.
http://www.probusauktioner.se/auktion/au...November%202014



I've written to Holts asking them to examine their SN again. From blowing up the image of the tang, it looks like the Holts gun is indeed 8578.


Reilly "3"'s and "5"'s were very similar. Terry Buffum had repeated problems with this in his serial numbered Reillys: example below listed as "20625," when it's in fact "20623" validated by the numbers on the action face and barrels:


Which makes me wonder if the Swedish sold SxS were actually 8378..making it the first gun made after their move to New Oxford St....(And this would make the label fit better with the chronology). Strange..but for a historian important. (Holt's is not accepting on-line queries for some reason - I've had two returned - I think Holt's is fed up with my queries).

I've written to the Swedish auction. They have not responded.


Last edited by Argo44; 04/06/20 07:52 PM.

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And if anyone follows the Reilly history and serial number chronology closely, the above appearance of two Reilly SN 8578's made me review records I've had some doubts about for some time. I've had to make changes. SN 3329 and SN 3392 tuned out to be identical guns. The correct number is 3329, which is now the last main-line SN'd gun from 316 High Holborn.

This changed the SN order and number of guns made per year a bit from 1839 to 1859 by a few dozen guns a year. But the change does have a certain advantage In that it makes the few existing late 1840's Reilly guns seem more chronologically logical.
-- (For instance, it moves JC 7000 series 7201 .577 single barrel rifle back to 1848, which can justify more easily the "removed from Holborn" still on the trade label. (It looks like JC was wedded to the High Holborn address...he never changed it in his voting registrations out at Bourn's End...a pretty conservative fellow it would seem - which might explain why he quit in a huff in September 1857 when EM was going full bore into center-break guns).
-- And if the Swedish "8578" turns out to be "8378"...it makes the "5000" figure jump from 3329 upon the move to New Oxford Street more logical.

This said, much of the early chronology circa 1827 to about 1857 is pretty speculative given the paucity of extant guns. The chart I made is logical...but subject to change. (and even so...it will still get you close to the date your gun was serial numbered).

Last edited by Argo44; 04/06/20 06:37 PM.

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Doing some surfing tonight (found three more serial numbered Reilly's)...I ran across this Reilly U-L. Take a look at the hammers.
https://waffen-beste.de/Flinten/flinten.html

HDF E. M. Reilly & Co. London super Erhaltungszustand mit allem Zubehör sogar Schlüssel für Lederkoffer Kal. 12/70 engl. Nitrobeschuss Damstläufe innen blank. Verschluss Dicht.


HDF E. M. Reilly & Co. London super condition with all accessories even keys for leather case cal. 12/70 engl. Nitro Proof on the barrel flats? (" innen blank")? (welcome better translation). Closure tight.




No SN.....unclear label looks to be the E.M. Reilly & Co., gun manufacturers label used from August 1860 to the opening of rue Scribe in February 1868. This is obviously an early center-fire (probably originally a pin-fire?). The earliest Reilly C-F shotgun I've found is 14115 I've dated to 1866 - about the time of the first true c-f shotgun shell introduction. The hammers look a lot like those on 12 bore's 14983, the first extant Reilly with rue Scribe on the rib.

So without more information, I'd put it into the time period late 1866 - Feb 1868.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/09/20 07:08 PM.

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Strange things do happen. I was contacted by a gentleman in UK who has just joined this board "Papeman." He owns Reilly SN 26584, a BLNE in excellent condition (A&D use # 8072):




As chance would have it, in December 2015 I bought a case from a lady in UK who advertised it on eBay. It has an original Reilly label in it, one of the "outliers" which has been discussed before. On the label is hand written "26584" and "1886." Pretty amazing that the case is on this side of the Atlantic and the gun that belonged in it is still in UK. They lady who sold it to me said her husband got it out of a recycling location in Dorset.




My chart dates 26584 to around October 1884. I speculate it was numbered when ordered and not picked up until 1886.

After some very cursory reflections, decided the case belonged with the gun. Sent it back to UK to reunite it with the original. Here's the picture. It was worth it.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/13/20 10:21 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Argo44
Doing some surfing tonight (found three more serial numbered Reilly's)...I ran across this Reilly U-L. Take a look at the hammers.
...

HDF E. M. Reilly & Co. London super Erhaltungszustand mit allem Zubehör sogar Schlüssel für Lederkoffer Kal. 12/70 engl. Nitrobeschuss Damstläufe innen blank. Verschluss Dicht.

HDF E. M. Reilly & Co. London super condition with all accessories even keys for leather case cal. 12/70 engl. Nitro Proof on the barrel flats? (" innen blank")? (welcome better translation). Closure tight.
….
So without more information, I'd put it into the time period late 1866 - Feb 1868.


"Nitrobeschuss Damstläufe innen blank. Verschluss Dicht."
Nitro proof [;] Damascus barrels[,] bores bright. Lockup tight.

Sometimes in German ads you'll see bores referred to as "spiegelblank", which translates as "mirror bright".


fiery, dependable, occasionally transcendent
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