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Joined: Aug 2003
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cable Offline OP
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bought this a few years ago from Little Johns auction in California; it was listed as 16x16x 45/70
very nice looking gun with very good shotgun and rifle bores; very tight and strong looking gun. only with this quarantine have I had time to do anything with it, so have been loading low pressure 45/70 loads. an empty 45/70 case seems to fit perfectly but my standard length loads wont chamber, have to reduce the overall length to 2.3", rather than standard 2.55 or so length. so now I am worried. I found my cerrosafe and will do a chamber cast. but here are pictures of the markings and the gun;

















its very nicely balanced with flip up barrel sight and flip up tang sight

what can you tell me about it?


Last edited by cable; 04/12/20 11:52 PM.

cable
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cable,
Your drilling was made by someone in or around Suhl for marketing by Halang and Bachner. It was proofed between early 1893( when the 1891 Proof Law came into force) and 1911(when improvements were made that changed some markings). The 16 in a circle means it had standard 16 gauge chambers, which would be 65mm( 2 1/2-2 9/16"), not the 70mm ( 2 3/4" that is used now). The 17/1 is the bore diameter of the shot barrel, ahead of the chamber, as expressed in gauge measurement. This works out to be about 16.64mm (about .656"), which is a little tight but not too unusual. The crown G means that barrel was proofed to fire a single projectile( bullet). The crown U means it passed a "View proof" which is a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions, performed after firing a definitive proof, using the provisional proof load. A crown S is the mark for proof to use shot in that barrel, but the font of this on your drilling seems to be different. The 62/78 is the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter, as expressed in gauge measurement. This works out to about 10.67mm( .419"), which precludes the 45-70. A chamber cast will be necessary to identify the nominal cartridge it is chambered for. At the time you make the chamber cast, also "slug the barrel", or capture enough of the barrel to get a good ID of the groove diameter. There are also some markings that seem to be cruder that the proof house marks. This may very well be the designation of the powder used for proofing. It seems like a "P", an "M/71", and some I can't make out. This may be some reference to the powder used in the M 1871 Rifle ammunition. This powder is usually shown as NGP M/71( new rifle powder m/71). Note that either way, the drilling is proofed for black powder. BTW, the shot barrels are "Damascus", but the rifle barrel is steel( likely from schilling forge-note the "s" in an ellipse). Raimey may come in and tell you about Halang und Bachner.
Mike

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cable Offline OP
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excellent ! thank you ... i suspect this is chambered for one the ‘11mm’ cartridges that existed then and as such i can probably create some modest loads for it

your expertise is much appreciated !


cable
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Gegründet / founded in 1862 by Wilhelm Halang und Benjamin Bachner, who had some nickname or acronym. And by 1895 it appears that Benjamin Bachner was the sole proprietor?

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-makers/1873-handbook-of-industry-vol-1/

Simply amazing what Larry has compiled on Dietrich Apel's website.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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From the Dietrich's website:

Gegründet 1862 von Emil Halang u. Benno Bachner, liefert diese Anstalt die Seite 292 des Adressen- Anzeifers aufgeführten Jagd- und Luxuswaffen und beschäftigt 30 Arbeiter.

Benno was his nickname. Says they engaged 30 mechanics.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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Tube was sourced from the Schilling forge & the load data stamped on the tube is 4 grammes of M/71(4 gr Pulver M/71).

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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cable Offline OP
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thank you. haven't done the chamber cast yet, and may just sell this gun, though it is a beauty.. I have another hammer drilling with 9.3x72R rifle, and have dies, brass, factory loads, and my own loads.
I have so many projects already that this one may become some ones else's puzzle

it has an interesting feature. no selector for the rifle barrel, instead the hammer is articulated and folds at its neck so that it strikes the rifle firing pin.





cable
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cable,
If you sell it before IDing the cartridge, you would always wonder what it is. I think the bore diameter is a little small for a nominal 11mm, maybe something like 10.75 or 10.8. Did the rim of a 45-70 case fit the extractor? If it did, it is not a Mauser Base (MB) case. When I make MB cases from 45-70; in addition to moving it forward, I have to reduce the rim diameter from about .608" to about .595"( the book says .585"). It would be a shame to let it go, you seem to have an interest in old German guns. If you are not already a member, I think you would enjoy being in the "German Gun Collectors Assn."
Mike

Last edited by Der Ami; 04/15/20 07:37 PM.
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cable Offline OP
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yes, I do have quite an interest in German guns and I just joined the GGGA

yes, the 45/70 rim fit the extractor quite well.

I have a nice pre-war drilling 12x12x 9.3x74R from the early to mid 1930s [ marked Carl Calz Dusseldorf if I recall ] and it is a beauty, I have two JP Sauers in 12x12x30/06 with scopes [ one has a 6x42 Nickel, the other has two fitted scopes a 1.5 - 7, and a huge 2.5x10] as well as 22 WMR insert barrels for each of those. also there is a fine Collath hammer drilling which is chambered in standard 9.3x72R x12x12, and a neat little post war sauer 16x16 that had the rifle barrel sleeved and converted to 22 LR [ great small game and bird gun ]. I have a 20x20x25/35 and an old Baker10x10x44/40 also. I have had others over the years as well.

you are right, I will do the chamber cast

it is unusual also in that the forend is integral with the receiver, not readily detachable, like I have seen on an old Husqvarna hammer gun, I have

A few more pics...it really is a attractive old thing; it has the flip up tang sight which I like.








Last edited by cable; 04/15/20 08:35 PM.

cable
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That forend is just a holdover from the Lefaucheux platform and many, many hunters preferred that up till say WWI. The stock looks Austrian, possibly Bavarian.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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