doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com THE SHORT 10...GREATEST GAUGE EVER?

I know this will be hotly debated over and over and will bring out the "crazy" in everybody but after shooting vintage 10 bore SXS's for over 20 years I have come to the conclusion that all of those live pigeon shooters from the Victorian age were right and knew what they were doing. For those of you who shoot the "short 10" with 2 5/8 & 2 7/8 chambers you know what I am talking about. I also prefer them with outside hammers. I am not talking about the modern semi auto and pump 10 gauge guns! Of course there will be the critics who think the 16 gauge or the 28 gauge are the greatest things ever. And by the way...weight be damned! The 10 will do it all and you can shoot 12, 16, and 20 gauge shells with inserts that pattern beautifully. So enjoy the can of worms I have just opened up!

I shoot a late Syracuse L.C. Smith Quality 2 and an Ithaca NID with cocking indicators.
BOTH fun 10 gauge guns

Mike

Nope, not in my opinion.

Funny for a 12boreman to consider a 10 as the "greatest gauge ever".

YMMV, SRH

THE NAMES 8 BORE AND 8 GAUGE WERE ALREADY TAKEN!

I've owned, shot and duck hunted with a short 10. It weighed in at 10 lbs., with 32" barrels. Had no problems swinging it fast enough to get on a streakin' woodie. Also hunted it in Arkansas in green timber. I could kill ducks with it no better than I can with 2 3/4" bismuth 1 1/4 oz. loads. No farther, no deader. There is no deader than dead.

I traded it on a 32" 16 ga. Elsie. I got the better end of that deal.

JMO, SRH

IMHO....Stan is the Man.

Until one has used a vintage 10 gauge hammer gun with black powder to shoot clays and live birds they can make no comparison. There is something about a 10 that just settles into the hands and feels right. Especially with an English stock. Most of my 10's weight 8 to 8.5 pounds. Not much more than a 12 but they just feel better!

The short ten is a favorite of mine. There is something almost mystical about the kills it can produce. And for me that is usually with only 1 1/4 oz shot. It just shoots better than paper stats would indicate it should. Don�t use it much anymore since I�ve pretty much aged out of laying in a field behind goose decoys or freezing in a duck blind with the snow burning my face red. But they are great memories!

I just destroyed my newly acquired chamber reducers in a 10ga Parker PH and don't want to spend the money shooting 10ga shells. Will be looking for a heavy 32"x2.75" 12ga instead.

Despite many "olde wive's tales" the 10-gauge was never the dominate bore size here in North America. From the introduction of cartridge shotguns right after the Civil War the 12-gauge has reigned supreme. The 10-gauge production peaked in the 1881-85 time frame, but never reached 50%.

Every gauge other than 12's and 20's are for relief from boredom. But that's alright, mama.
JR

Now John, you know 20�s are a cheap substitute for a sixteen.

I used my short 10 Francotte with a mix of RST 1 1/8 ounce light loads and my matching hand loads to good effect at a Tower shoot in the winter. I had to have a quick conversation with the owner to get around the no 10 gauge or 3.5 inch 12 gauge magnum rule posted in the clubhouse. Thankfully, he had the common sense to grasp the nuance that my hand loads were lighter than most of the shells that the 12 gauge guys were using and even some of the 20 gauge gunners. I noticed more than a few 1 1/4 ounce 3 inch 20 gauge shells on the ground as we rotated blinds.

I've also hand loaded bismuth for it and even black powder. This gun is just too versatile to not use under the right conditions. It is also a heck of a lot of fun!

Here here!!

Or an expensive alternative to a pedestrian 12 for those that can't seem to be comfortable with the masses

I�ve owned two short 10�s over the years. 1 was a T. Woodward that weighed under 8 lbs....it was built as a game gun, most people would have to look at the barrel flats to know that it was a 10.
#2 was a W&C Scott built on the Baker/Scott action (Crystal cocking indicators), that one was definitely a 10 gauge. It looked it & felt it. I think it was around 9 lbs, and the barrels were as thick as an artillery piece.

They were expensive to shoot (I didn�t load for them). Neat to own. Didn�t really fill a niche or tug at my heart strings all that much.

I shot a couple of turkeys and some ducks with with a short ten W & C Scott I had. That one was too heavy to carry around for me and I sold it. Seemed like I was always out of shells for it...Geo

I have half dozen short 10ga lc s n they are a hoot to shoot sporting clays with !!but too heavy to lug around hunting!

Have used my short 10, a Darne R-16 with handloads of 1-1/4 oz of #2 Bismuth for Canada geese and 1- 1/8 oz handloads of #6 lead for Huns, Chukars and pheasants. The gun weighs 7 lbs 2 oz and is rigged with choke tubes in new barrels, duly superior proofed in St. Etienne. The new straight stock fits me and I shoot well enough for a shotgun duffer.

Must say I prefer my 12 gauge 2-3/4 inch Charlin 'tho.

Regards

I wholeheartedly agree! The 10 is just too versatile too pass up. I have plenty of 12's, 16's, 20's, etc., but I keep going back to the 10. Hell of a lot of fun with black powder!

What happened to your chamber inserts? Did they stick and get ruined?

I have a very early Ithicia Crass hammerless 10 ga. 3" chambers and 8 lbs, 30" Damascus barrels. Serial # dates to 1889 +/-. Built as a pigeon gun and a real hoot to shoot. I load 1 1/8-1 1/4 oz lead 4 or 5's and shoot crows in a pecan orchard.

AWESOME!

Yeah. They were snug with the shells and the action was difficult to close as well. Luckily, the manufacturer is willing to extend me a refund.

Just for interest

The American Field, January, 1879 Jamaica Plank Rd., L.I., New York
�Brooklyn Gun Club vs. Philadelphia Gun Club�
Only two Parker guns on the grounds. Mr. T.E. Broadway of the Brooklyners used a Parker 10 ga. with close choke weighing 9 1/2 lbs shooting 4 1/2 drachms of DuPont�s Diamond Grade and 1 1/4 oz. of Tatham's soft shot.
For the Philly club, Mr. H.A. Burroughs shot a Parker 12 bore with medium choke weighing but 7lb 14oz. He shot 4 drachms of Hazard�s Electric Powder and 1 1/4 oz. of chilled #7 in the left barrel and #8 in the right.

Outing: Sport, Adventure, Travel, Fiction January, 1889
Al Bandle, of Cincinnati, on Christmas Day, 1888 defeated the famous shot, Captain A. H. Bogardus, by killing 100 live birds straight to the Captain's equally remarkable record of 95.
Bogardus shot a 12-gauge L.C. Smith gun, hammerless, 7 lbs. 12 oz. weight and shot 4 drams American Wood powder in his first barrel, 1 1/4 oz. No. 8 shot in first and 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 in second, backed up with 3 1/4 drams Laflin and Rand Orange Lightning powder.
Bandle shot the same make of gun, 10 gauge, and used, first barrel, 4 drams Wood powder, second, 4 drams Laflin and Rand �F.F.F. extra� powder, No. 7 shot.

1890 American Shooting Association Rules
https://archive.org/stream/fieldcovertrapsh01boga#page/458/mode/2up
No limit on powder
In single bird (target) shooting the rise shall be:
Eighteen yards for ten-bore guns; limit 1 1/4 oz.
Sixteen yards for twelve-bore guns; limit 1 1/8 oz.
Fourteen yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns; limit 1 oz.
Thirteen yards for twenty-bore guns; limit 7/8 oz.
In double-target shooting the rise shall be:
Sixteen yards for ten-bore guns.
Fourteen yards for twelve-bore guns.
Twelve yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns.
Eleven yards for twenty-bore guns.
Rules for Live Bird Shooting - same load limitations
The rise shall be:
Thirty yards for ten-bore guns.
Twenty-eight yards for twelve-bore guns.
Twenty-six yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns.
Twenty-five yards for twenty-bore guns.

In 1892 ASA limited both 10g and 12g to 1 1/4 oz.

At the 1894 GAH at Live Birds, now under the auspices of the Interstate Association, guns were limited to 12 gauge and 8 pounds.

I suspect Smokeless Powder, which was in wide use by 1894-1895, ended any advantage the 10g may have had.

it is interesting that you mention the 1894 GAH shoot limiting only to 12 gauge. I suspect the 10 was viewed as a "ringer" gauge or having an unfair advantage. Having shot both 12's and 10's I will take the 10 on live birds any day. It just settles into the hands better and feels better when it goes off. Until one has compared the two side by side they can't pass judgment in my opinion.

I love the short 10ga. I own 7 Parkers and 4 L.C. Smith's and one Ithaca Super Ten.
I find them fun to shoot clays and hunt waterfowl with. They were king of the hill in the duck blind back in the day and still preform very well today.
I reload for the 10 and find the red dot load with 1 1/8 oz very pleasant to shoot.
If your a waterfowl hunter and into vintage sxs guns you will never regret buying and killing ducks with the best gun ever invented for waterfowl hunting.

Glad to see someone feels the same as me. I hunt everything with the short 10. Ducks, pheasant, sharp-tails, sage grouse huns, doves, quail, etc. I too like the 1 1/8 Red Dot load but I still prefer to shoot black powder. I shoot a 10 at my local club on skeet and sporting clays every week. Also, shooting 20 gauge inserts is a real hoot!

I keep angling to get a Lindner Charles Daly Diamond Quality model 275 in 10 gauge that weighs only 7 1/2 pounds. The owner is a bit ambivalent about it but hasn't said yes yet.

Problem is, some dummy cut 8" inches (assuming it started as 30") off the barrels so now it's kind of a ruffed grouse/home defense gun. Lindner would be turning in his grave.

Wow that sounds like it would be fun to walk the ditches of the farms in Canada with. Light and wide open pattern for the birds that jump up

That's real bummer to see that happen to a nice gun. Unfortunately, we see it all too often

If you don't have one, get one! You won't regret it.

Romac,
that is a beautiful Francotte, is that a side plated bl?..can't see any pins... but by jeesus they put out a very pretty & well built gun didn't they, what age? 1925-30?..i am a big fan of this maker...duh...i lust for that gun, oh my!!
Franc otte

The problem is he has an unrealistic idea of value. Hasn't sunk in that cut barrels make a world of difference to value and not in a good way.

Franc Otte, not sure of the date of manufacture. I think I used to know but forget.

Maybe you could tell me based upon the information in the picture.



A few more:

That is wonderful

stunning and elegant!

The lettre annale is 'e' = 1926

i think the "e "is code for 1926 ,0r perhaps '29, but i think '26, as i have a nice belgian sle with the e, n i recall that as dating to '26 ..grand gun mate..
cheers
ftanc

i just saw drew beat me after i posted that, bit at least the memory is not totally gone, ha ha
once again, lovey gun...they put out some crackin guns around that time,eh? whats that, a 25e sideplate bl?
franc

deleted - Not relevant...

12boreman, the following is not aimed at you specifically. Rather, it is intended to add a bit of science to this discussion. I am an engineer steeped in science, but I still believe in magic weapons. The holder of a weapon he believes to posses magical powers is a step ahead of others. Magic comes from the combination of suitable weapon with inspired warrior. The warrior has need only to focus on his own performance as he knows full well that the weapon will take care of its performance. After all, it is magic.

Science. We need concern ourselves with three "fits." First is stock fit which aids in pointing the gun quickly and accurately. At minimum we need appropriate dimensions for length of pull, stock drop at comb and at heel, and stock cast at face and at butt. Note that these dimensions are not gauge specific.

Second is gun dynamics fit which aids us in changing which way the gun is pointing quickly and accurately. The factors are weight, teeter-totter balance, unmounted swing effort, and mounted swing effort. Swing effort is based on moment of inertia which in turn is based on weight and weight distribution. Gun gauge is not a factor.

Third is feel fit. It is based on the size and shape of the areas where the gun is gripped. Consider the wide difference in feel of tight pistol grip to straight stock and beaver tail fore end to splinter. Again, not gauge specific.

All three fits are individual to the shooter. The trick is to get all three in one gun!

And, if you believe in one gauge above the others, by all means shoot it. You will shoot better with a gauge you have faith in than with one you consider pedestrian.

Last item. Shoot guns you enjoy before ones you shoot well - life is short and can always use enjoyment. Gun aesthetics are not to be overlooked as a "fit."

Thus endeth this rant.

DDA

One of the better rants in the history of DoubleGunBBS Don

and this
"Shoot what fits you, what you shoot well, and what you enjoy shooting. If you find a gun that fits all three of these...never, but never, sell it!"

Strangely, even though I am left handed most 100 to 150 year old guns fit me. I even prefer the ones with 3+ inches of drop!
So yes, I do believe in voodoo though it might contradict the laws of physics and nature. Shooting a 28 gauge might be a fun novelty but the 10 and the 8 if you are lucky enough to own one are the kings!

I finally found my notes and yes it is a 25 E and the Date of Manufacture was 1926.

I have a very nice Hollis 10 pound 10 gauge 2 5/8 chambers that I never shot after reading all the comments on the short 10 I am thinking of getting some RST shells and give it a go although I do have some unfired boxes of brass 3 in. shells that could be cut down and used if I knew what I was doing as far as loading data.

If the Hollis fits you, you will love shooting it. Definitely buy some RST shells and shoot them, then you will have shells to reload. Also, buy some "Little Skeeters" chamber inserts in 12 gauge then you can shoot lots of readily available ammo.

The BEST and luckiest shot I ever made was with my 10 ga Parker Hammergun loaded with brass cases and 4 1/4 BLACK PWD 1 1/4 # 6 shot, Killed a nice Duck with it at 70 yds. I have that Duck mounted in my office

Canvas, you get that gun just jug choke it. It'll be just fine once again. I have three 10ga SxSs. The Parker and Remington are a touch heavy for walking the woods, but the Lefever would be fine. The nice thing about the short 10 is they can be loaded down to 1oz of shot. Rocketman likes science, or the math in loads, just think how short the shot column is with only 1oz of shot in a 10ga. There's hardly any setback deforming the shot so all of it stays round and in the pattern. And although I'm not sure, but I'd think the shot string would also be shorter. I also have GaugeMates for 10 to 12 but it's usually lots more fun shooting short 10ga shells. I run the shotgun venue at my club and for about 14 years [ not sure ] I've been putting on a SxS shoot every year. There use to be a elderly gentleman who dressed in period correct clothing who shot either a 8 or 10ga gun with BP. God did he love to load it up. The ground would shake and he loved to call quite loudly for the bird. I don't think he cared if he hit anything or not - he just loved to shoot. In the covered 5-stand the roof and walls felt like they we coming off. That was back before I acquired my 10ga guns. Back then I would shoot BP at the various SxS shoots in our state, but with a 12. If I were limited to one shotgun it would be a SxS 10ga. Why, because it can be loaded up and down for about anything. With the bigger bore the shot column is shorter so the patterns are better. Sorry, eat your hearts out 12, 16, 20, and 28ga shooters. That's the science, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Carry on 12boreman, you got my vote.

Y�all are all a bunch of sissies. Adam Borgardus in his book, �Field, Cover, and Trap Shooting�, only used a ten gauge for all his shooting and preferred a gun weighing ten pounds, though for weaklings he allowed an eight pound gun was suitable and felt it was not too heavy to carry all day in the field after a bit of conditioning. He used it for everything from quail to waterfowl and also for the big money matches. His load was 4 1/2 drams and 1 ounce shot varying from #9 to #2, according to time of year and game he was shooting. Here is a page from his book. The book can be downloaded from Google Books for free. Interesting from another age.



Truly, the short ten is the universal gauge!

IN MY 10 LB SCOTT EXCELLENTIA 10 GA, I USE SMOKELESS, I USE 24 GR GREENDOT WITH 1 1/4 SHOT AND IT IS A NICE FUN LOAD FOR TARGETS OR GAME

Thanks for your insight and kind words in your post. I have shot killed more game, won more SxS events with the short 10 than anything else. I wish more people would give it a try and forget about the old wives tales of being too heavy and too much recoil. Long live the 10 gauge!

I whole heartedly agree! Grow a pair and try the short 10. It was certainly good enough for Bogardus and its definitely good enough for me! I hope that someday people will get past the idea that the 16,20, or 28 are somehow superior to everything else in existence. Although I own many of those gauges and enjoy shooting them, there is nothing...absolutely nothing that comes close to the 10!

I have "a pair", thank you.

Why do you think that "people" think that "the 16, 20, and the 28 are superior"?

I'm good with you loving you some short ten. But, take it easy on those who don't buy into worshipping at the short 10 altar.

SRH

Stan, the original intention of the post was not to "offend" anyone's sensibilities but to simply offer an alternative to the everyday chatter. We have all heard a million times that a 16 throws a perfect "square load" so it must be the greatest thing since sliced bread. We have also heard that the 28 is somehow magical in its own right. And lastly, we have heard over and over that a 20 will do everything a 12 will do. Well...that is just not so! The short 10 barely gets a mention so this post was meant to give folks a chance to ponder an alternative to the status quo and hopefully try it out for themselves.

I have tried that load and it works well, especially in my Charles Daly. I also use the reduced red dot load of 19.0 grains and 1 1/8 ounce of shot regularly for birds and clays.

No offense taken by me, but thanks for explaining. No problem with favoring one thing over another. Variety is the spice of life, they say. I just can't reason why someone would want to shoot clays with a 10 ga.

I have many doubleguns in .410, 28, 20, 16 and 12, and I use all those gauges. I choose the gauge and load that fits the situation best, which is why I no longer own a 10 ga., either short or long chambered. I have a lifetime of experience hunting game of all sizes with shotguns, from deer down to doves. IME the short ten was no advantage to me at all, and big and slow.

As I mentioned, I'm glad you enjoy them and are, obviously, enthusiastic about it. Just thought the comment about growing a pair was a little much, unless you really believe carrying and shooting a big bore gun is somehow macho.

I've probably had too much to say about it anyway, so I'm done. (I think I hear a collective "Whew!").

Happy Memorial Day weekend, SRH

I had a client back in the "old days" at MW Reynolds who owned a Thomas Turner BLE in short 10. The gun was as light or lighter than most 12s. He called it his "snake" gun because the entire length to the tubes and action were stippled in an effort to eliminate any reflection (his and my supposition). The only 10 I've ever lusted after so fiercely.

I must confess to falling for the macho effect of the big 10 for a few years. Talk about being beaten like a red-headed stepchild, 3 1/2-inch magnum shells in a 9 1/2-lb BLNE. Very few people (other than stupid me) ever shot it more than once. I'm lucky I didn't get detached retinas(!). It did work well on big ducks and geese, however. I had opened the chokes so it could shoot relatively-inexpensive steel and it finally shot itself loose after a few seasons of digesting the only commercially available shells I could find up in nowhere Minnesota, the ones with 1540 fps velocities at the muzzle. With those shells, it sounded more like a rifle than a shotgun when you uncorked it.

Another reason I like the short 10 is that they generally cost less money on the open market and at auction. I usually shoot 12 gauge inserts at clays but at least once during a round of skeet or sporting clays I will throw in a black powder 10 gauge round and it scares the hell out of everyone! Good times indeed.

I have dozens, maybe a few less, of tens, maybe a few average tens, maybe a few really lightweights, maybe a few heavyweights, but all good guns to shoot. The big problem with tens is how to load for them or how to deal with RST to get shells. I will post about how to deal with that, but hold on.