doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DIY Gunsmithing @ doublegunshop.com Flexner, finishes, and firearms....

Apologies in advance for those who are weary of finishing threads.

Like others here, I've been reading Flexner's book on finishes. And like others, I have found a good bit of demystification in it.

However, it has raised a few questions:
1. The flexner initiate seem to come to the conclusion that linseed oil is outdated, mythical nonsense. I see in the early pages that he debunks the idea that linseed is the holy grail of all finishes, but I also read this in his chapter on oil finishes (p.77):
"For small objects such as gunstocks, how ever, polymerized oil works superbly."
So what am I missing? Why do people routinely say "read Flexner, then you'll understand why linseed oil is an old wives tale", or something like that.
2. On that same note, understanding that the addition of things like copal or other resins creates an oil based varnish (i.e. not just an oil finish), what am I missing in Flexner's book that makes people reference him in their arguments against traditional slakum oil?
3. For those who have come to the conclusion that linseed is not that great, particularly in protecting a gun, how does that square with the many examples of 100+ year old guns with intact wood finished with linseed oils? In fact, why aren't their more examples of guns that are ruined because they only got an oil finish, instead of a modern poly based finish?
4. Finally, it seems to me that the finest gun makers in the world, both today and for the past century or so, have used linseed oil based slakum to finish their 'best guns'? Are the folks at purdey, etc, just behind the times? Have they simply missed the Flexner revolution?

I don't think Flexner's book is necessarily for or against using any product or technique. I think it can help understand what a product actually is, regardless of potentially misleading names. How use them, compatability, expectations, thinning, idenifying and fixing problems, etc.

That is my reading as well, but I have noticed that the 'flexner card' gets played often by those who are debunking the usefulness of linseed oil in gunstock finishes.


My guess is that some folks don't actually get past page 75 where he says, 'Of all finishes except wax, linseed oil is the least protective.'

But then on page 77, he goes on to say polymerized oils (tung or linseed) do indeed give protection and a pleasing finish, and that linseed gives a better feel and quicker working timev compared to tung oil.

Page 78-79 goes further suggesting that 'When varnish [oil + resin] is built up, it protects the wood from all but the most severe scratches, and it forms an excellent barrier against stains, water, and water-vapor exchange.'

What most would describe as slakum, seems to be what Flexner would refer to as varnish, wiping varnish, or oil/varnish blend. All of these would have increased protection over simple BLO, which Flexner says 'works superbly' for gunstocks.

I opened the Flexner book expecting to learn that my interest in slakum was romantic nonsense. I found, instead, that an actual 'cover to cover' reading of the chapter on oils, is in no way an argument against the old finishes.

So I'm wondering if there are some here who are reading Flexner differently, since he seems to be invoked regularly by those pronouncing the old linseed finishes to be obsolete.

One addition for the tung vs linseed oil discussion, which also often invokes Flexner:

"If you were to choose between using boiled linseed oil or tung oil for your finish, I would think you would almost always want to use boiled linseed oil."


That is from this article
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/flexner-on-finishing-blog/comparing-linseed-oil-and-tung-oil/


He's talking about furniture in general, but the principle would seem to apply that tung oil offers no real advantage over BLO on balance.

With reasonable expectations, I believe it's possible to ignore subtle differences, and maybe subjectivity, in the various protective properties of finishes. I believe it all comes down to aesthetics, and ways to manipulate it.

Making comments about Flexner I feel is you are on the way to ha hiding to nothing. Because people who do not have a real depth of knowledge because of the information given to them from books it is the true gospel of wood finishing. But it is far from it! I found that the opinions in the book are too dogmatic and usually given from a point of minimal knowledge of the subject at hand. I feel that I would stand a good kicking if I am wrong on, I am sure he has not refinished or just finished a Vintage Boss Holland & Holland Purdey with a four Grand rich dark and beautiful Turkish Walnut stock. To do this I have always felt that the recommendation would be a couple of brush applied coats of Yacht Varnish. I suppose it could be said what does a "Process Engineer" also know about wood finishing, all I can say is I have been producing good finishes for lets say sixty years and done a lot of research over those years rather than be a cabinet maker.
As for the rather firm condemnation Of Linseed oil out of hand smacks of little practical knowledge of the full subject. At this point I would like to say that Linseed oil finish on a gun stock is in the wood not just on top and for its time one of the only finishes to allow wood to seasonally move by allowing water vapour to travel in and out of the surface without breaking down quickly. Of course the proof of this is sitting in Museums and Armoires all over the world for any person to see but only if they want to. As we all know saying something controversial sells newspapers and of course books, on the subject of a book I have wanted to put down on paper my experiences and knowledge of gun stock finishing but I cant because things in the subject are still changing fast. Finally I did give my recommendations on using a more modern type of finish starting after colouring by applying a sanding sealer, another of my one of many lifetime Lead balloons!
Finally according to Flexner it would not be possible to perform a gunstock repair on a vintage gun because using Linseed Oil is not worth a Carrot, so when the "Mona Lesa" was damaged I think the book would recommend two coats of emulsion paint and a top coat of oil based gloss.
Just one further point, It has somehow been the thinking of wood workers in general and I do include furniture makers in this. They all seem to have the idea that "I can finish wood" and a gunstock is just wood so by association I can do a perfect job of it. Though they would have no idea how to deal with an oil soaked gunstock head, also I have never seen a page in one of these books giving how to lay out gunstock chequering let alone how to set about cutting it. I would dearly love to hand one a stock and say re cut the chequering and if it turns out bad that is a two grand piece of wood to replace. Though the authors will pontificate "Ad Nauseum" on how to finish and what finish to use in their lofty opinion. Though your Military have a saying that sums up my feelings about what I see are dictatorial authors, "It is all Bull Shit and Shino".

An interesting post, but pray tell me what do these authors have against the use of vegetable oils for wood finishing? Without doubt all of the 'Best' gunmakers still use a traditional oil finish for their best guns lovingly applied over a number of days to provide the truly beautiful lustrious sheen that is a pleasure to behold.
NOW time is money and if sprayed on poly or varnish finishes can achieve the same lustre ( which it can ) why is it not universally used by 'Best' gunmakers?
As another thought , how much would a valuable antique piece of furniture by Thomas Chippendale be devalued if it was chemically stripped and then sprayed with varnish or two pack?

I have really nothing to add to the conversation, but recently I turned a live edge walnut slab into a coffee table (I have another piece that is identical in shape waiting for me to install the legs) and after doing a bit of research found a product I thought I'd try for the finish. It's a hard wax finish based on vegetable oils, carnuba and other waxes and ingredients, made in Germany called OSMO hard wax finish. After applying it to the table, which to my eye turned out very nice, I thought this stuff may work for gunstock finishes.

It's very easy to apply and it's suggested only two coats are needed. I'm not going to get into all the particulars of application, but any thoughts on this stuff being used for a gunstock finish? Perhaps this isn't the correct thread for my question?

There is a research paper from the US Forest service in which they detail the results of durability test of various wood finishes. The results show that the most protective finish is epoxy and the least protective linseed oil.

But protection is not the primary goal when finishing a gunstock. Which is why we turn to linseed oil, over wood sealed with varnish or sealer etc, to get that unique feel. Guns are handled a lot, and the tactile characteristics matter.

This is a fine place for that question. To tie it in to the Flexner discussion, one thing to wonder is what exactly is in it. Flexner correctly points out that labeling is often either misleading or at least uninformative.

If I'm looking at the right product online, I suspect it is a polyurethane based product, which is likely why it hardens. You could check the sds.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that if it gives you the look and feel you want, then go for it. It will undoubtedly be simpler than a true slakum oil finish.

On the other hand, as Damascus and Salopian pointed out, there is a reason the "best gun" makers continue to use oil finishes. The look and feel is very difficult to replicate in any other way.

If I were refinishing a vintage gun with hand checkering, hand engraving, a hand shaped stock, etc, I would do the extra work of putting a hand-rubbed oil finish on it. In fact, on a vintage best gun, I would be reluctant to put anything but traditional ingredients in the mix, even if the addition of poly to the mix would increase durability and hardness.

And to the point of the original post, if you decide to use a boiled linseed oil slakum, there is nothing in Flexner's book to say you'd be wrong, as far as I can tell.

Thanks Woodreaux! I'm using the #3054 OSMO finish and you're right, it would give me a better idea if I looked at the sds. My thought is, I've got some plain jane hunting rifles and bad weather shotguns that take some weather abuse here in N ID, with some I've refinished in the past, with a variety of oil finishes (excluding linseed). Using the OSMO or similar product may expedite the process when I get around to refinishing them.

I wouldn't use the product on the very few higher end/sentimental firearms I have.

Concerning the Linseed oil report from the USFS, it was standard practice to coat the tool handles (shovels, Pulaski's, axes, etc) yearly before the fire and field seasons with linseed oil of which the FS went through barrels of the stuff. Probably 15 or more years ago, they stopped using it due to not being any real benefit of longevity to the handles and in wet weather the handles would/could become (practical experience) more slick creating (in the USFS mind) a possible unsafe scenario.

Cameron, it's interesting that you say linseed oil has no effect on longevity. 20 yrs ago, I used a homebrew mix of linseed, mineral spirits and paraffin wax to coat cedar 4x4 fence posts, deck boards, and raised garden beds. All of those now need to be replaced, but 20 yrs here in my river-bottom swamp is pretty darn good. In comparison, some fence posts put in 10 yrs ago that I was too lazy to treat, decayed in just about 7 yrs. So, it definitely seems to work for that purpose, though the wax is also involved.

I would not use this on a gun stock, however. I really don't like wax of any type on any sort of wood furniture or gun stocks.

That was the USFS and I agree with their assessment! The rest of the story! A handle on a Pulaski (or shovel or axe) being used extensively on a fireline may last 4-5 years before the handle starts to splinter some or in fact breaks, unless it's a Forester packing a tool around in the back of their vehicle year after year, then a linseed coating may help prolong the life of the handle, otherwise linseed isn't justified for a handle that may only last a few years.

Hope this helps with the intent behind the discontinuation of linseed oil on the USFS tool handles (and the safety issue) and I would guess most State Forestry and Fire agencies as well.

An update on the OSMO PolyX finish.

My late father had a Winchester model 37 he bought for my older brother and I when I was in my early teens, that had seen some hard use. My intent was to refinish the stock and clean up the barrel a bit, eventually. Anyway, this thread lit a fire under my tail and I started the refinish late last week. Stripped the epoxy type finish off the forend and buttstock, raised the dents and filled the gouges, a light sand than I applied the OSMO finish, so far 5 coats. To my eye it's turned out very nice, with a nice satin sheen to it.

Time will tell how durable and protective it is, but so far I like hhow it looks....easy to apply, no strong smells, dries fairly quick. Sorry no pictures, not sure how to post them.