doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Duck hunting mudder SxS

What about either the CZ Hammer Classic or the CZ Sharp-tail Target for hunting ducks? Both are 30" 7.5 lbs guns, 3" chambers, black-chromed barrels with choke tubes. The Hammer Classic can be found for under $900 and the Target model is just under $1200.

Anyone try one of these two for ducks?

I have a CZ Hammer Classic. I was surprised how much I liked the tang safety which compliments the hammers nicely on a dove shoot or in a duck blind. I removed the steel buttplate and put on a Kick Ease pad. That helped both balance and tamed 3" recoil...Geo

Thanks, Geo.

About the only negative I've read is heavy triggers. How were yours?

The triggers on mine are good, and I am particularly sensitive to trigger weight. I do have Turkish guns with ridiculous triggers. Of course my gun is second hand so perhaps someone before I bought it cleaned up the trigger pulls...Geo

Thanks, Geo. The gun is starting to make a lot of sense to me for ducks and a little range fun.

I have been using one for ducks for a few years. The original triggers needed a lot of attention and I opened up the full pistol grip to a more open half PG to avoid bashing my middle finger on the trigger guard. Shoots well. a friend uses the Sharptail for ducks and is also happy with it.

If you are OK with hammerless, look for a Pietro Bernardelli Europa in 12 gauge. They came in PG or English grip, splinter f/e, oil or poly finish, DT or SST, 3� chambers, 28� barrels with choke tubes, extractors, case colored frame. Not a best gun, but a solid, reliable Brescia SxS, and one of the great bargains of all time. They pop up on the auction sites from time to time.

If you want a hammer gun, look for a Vincenzo Bernardelli Brescia or Italia (more money). Very nice and well made guns. I own a pair of Brescias and love them, but all that I have seen are 2-3/4� chambers and fixed chokes. Mine are English
grip with 30� barrels, M/F, extractors.

I have a San Georgio hammer gun, a "modern" Italian gun made by Bernardelli in 1973. Good triggers, Briley thinwalls, 30" barrels. Only time I've ever shot it was at S X S Hammer Gun events. It would make a good moderate load duck gun, especially for woodies in a beaver pond, as it is not overly heavy and handles nimbly.

SRH

My favorite waterfowl shotgun Husqvarna 51 IC/IM with 7/8oz ITX 6's

A couple of thoughts Dave Erickson,
I've learned over the years that a single triggered gun is better for waterfowl because

1) it's difficult to lace a cold or gloved finger into the right slot to pull the intended trigger and when you do manage to pull the trigger the heavy loads required for waterfowling can cause a cut or bruise from the trigger guard or back of the front trigger, and
2) ejectors are really important since every duck not killed immediately will only take a quick moment or two before swimming, running or diving - ejectors offer an empty and waiting chamber for some clean-up shots. Again, trying to dig a swollen shell out of a chamber with cold or gloved fingers can give you time to lose that canvasback you've always wanted.

I'm leaning heavily toward the CZ Hammer Classic. Sounds like CZ USA will promptly lighten the triggers if needed, and it will need a pad, otherwise it pushes the right buttons for a mudder.

Best part of whatever I buy will be the looks on the faces at the duck shack. They aren't gun guys, and no matter how I explain it, they won't get it.

I once had a young game warden look up foolishly from one of my double-guns after telling me he needed to check my plug???...Geo

That happened to me once!!! He looked down the tubes anyway (I think he was trying to save face). My partner had a pump gun and he wasn't checked! Go figure.

Best,

Greg

Now if it would have been the late Popplecop, he would have confiscated a nice double and kept it for himself. Popplecop (John Holmes), retired WI game warden, was a hell of a good guy and he liked his SxS's. I sold him a 30" 16 gauge Western Arms that became his favorite duck gun.

That is funny George. Reminds me of the chap who pulled the beavertail forearm off my dad's Nitro Special trying to pump it after shooting a rooster.

Just curious oskar, did you get your load from the BP manual? What velocity did you settle on, I'm thinking of making up batch of 1oz. for the coming fall. I keep leaning towards #4's, but I suspect 6's would be plenty enough with good reach.

Now I think about it, there is a double with sliding barrels and has two more shells in waiting below the closed barrels for automatic loading. I can't recall the name of the gun, but mebbe that's what the game warden was thinking of when he checked my plug?...Geo

Geo, that is a Levi. It is a sliding breech gun, no sliding barrels. I can pretty safely say there isn�t one west of the firearms museum in Liege.

Handed a game warden a Darne, once. He looked it over, and handed it back. Never opened it. Didn�t say another thing. If he had asked, I would have told him anything he wanted to know.

Best,
Ted

On two different occasions I've been asked if my 2 barreled gun had a plug. Once in a dove field when I was shooting a Beretta O/U and again following a September Teal season. That time the plug question was followed (with another O/U) by the question of what game I had taken. The Gillie clad Warden was surprised that I spotted him long before he thought I should have but he was really shocked when my answer was 2 Blue Winged Teal and a red Wing blackbird. When asked why I shot a redwing my response was that the season on them was open and that I had 7 doves at home and needed 1 more "dove" for a meal I was planning! He laughed so hard that he got me going too! It must have been a sight! Anyway, I saw him often and we always visited on those occasions but he never checked me again. His phone number in my cellphone always got rapid response when I called about poachers/trespassers. In both instances I offered them an out by saying, you ask that question all the time so that it's just automatic, isn't it.

I was asked that question by a local warden once, on a dove shoot. I was holding my 20 ga. Silver Pigeon II Sporting. Soon as he asked, he looked quickly at the double and laughed sheepishly. I just smiled and said "Yeah".

I never could understand why a plug is necessary when the limit is enforced. What does it matter how many shells a guy wastes after the first two or three?

SRH

A friend was dove hunting and had finished his limit, birds and gun sitting in the back of the truck. Warden walked up, checked the birds, and asked to check the plug. Friend said, � Well, you can�t.� This pissed off the warden, and they went round and round for a minute or two, until the warden got really irritated. My friend finally wised up and slid a SxS out of the case.

I ended up going with a BSS. Found a nice clean 28" gun with M/F chokes and a non-selective single trigger at a very decent price. I think I'll take Stan's approach and open up the full barrel to modified. I'm better off the less I think.

Congrats. Did you get a Sporter?

No, it's a standard gun. I wanted a Sporter, but the 28" Sporters are scarce and overpriced.

After you get comfortable with the gun, think about having a stock guy reshape the fat beavertail to a slimmer Sporter shape. Makes for a nicer handling gun. I did that with my second barrel for my two-barrel Sporter set, so that each barrel has its own f/e. Then strip the poly off the buttstock and apply a proper oil finish.

Leave it M/F and shoot Bismuth...Geo

No good reason to shoot bismuth in a BSS, unless you have money to burn. They are fine with steel and Mod chokes.

Bismuth hits a little harder than steel. So, there is at least one good reason.

Congrats on the new gun, Dave. A friend just came into a Browning B27, must be a sign from the ducks.

Best,
Ted

I've thought hard about that, Geo, and it would work fine, but I have lots of moderate steel loads on hand and they work well in our bottoms. That and I want to ramp up my clay shooting attack. My shooting buddies have tricked out SxS's for clays and I need to put some heat on them!

Thanks, Ted. Steel got a deserved bad reputation when it first came out, but modern steel is quite good. I stick with #2's and #3's and they kill ducks very well.

Dave Erickson,
You did good. I bought a case of BIS-Maxx when I first got my big BSS. It was okay - about like a high-speed steel load. The new Kent Bismuth is actually much better and significantly cheaper. Since then, I got Briley thin-walled tubes installed. If Kent had come out with Bismuth before I got the tubes installed then I probably would have left it a M/F gun and stayed with Bismuth.

I agree 100%, about the loads and the gun. M & M has worked fine in mine for many years, and continues to. And for clays, the same gun won the AA Class S x S at the 2010 U S Open Sporting Clays Championship.

SRH

At some point I could have Briley's installed. Then I could dial it in for either bismuth or steel, and have options at the clay ranges. Really looking forward to taking ducks with it!

I'm looking forward to seeing your pictures but don't stop at just ducks...

Makes me wonder why I waited so long.

It hits a little harder but costs a lot more. If you only hunt ducks a couple times a year, it�s fine. But if you are out a couple times a week in a 108-day season, the cost adds up fast. I much prefer the old tungsten blends (tungsten-polymer, tungsten-iron, tungsten-steel, etc.), but I only use those on special hunts (e.g., 800 mile trips for two days of hunting). I have a decent supply of tungsten and bismuth, and the bismuth stays in the garage until I run out of the good stuff. My everyday load is #2 or 3 steel at 1450, works pretty well. The BSS will digest anything you run thru it. Old doubles are a different story.

Just another muddy shotgun. It uses bismuth. I can live with the expense.

Brent, what is that and what made you select it for duck hunting?

Dave,
It's a special order Greener made in 1903. I like it because it is a very nice gun, fits me well, is fun to shoot. Has roughly an M/F set of chokes and kills ducks and pheasants very well.

Nice gun and a touch of class in the stinky muck.

Thanks. Ain't no use hunting with an ugly gun

Brent, while we're on this topic, what are you using for bismuth and how does the mod barrel perform with it?

I've taken handful of woodies with 16 gauge bismuth in my old Rem. 11 which has .021" choke. (about IM) No complaints on the performance, but none were at long range.

I'm using 1.25 oz of #5s that I reload with either Blue Dot or Longshot. They are work supremely well on pheasants and mallards out as far as I want to shoot. In a pinch, they will also work on Giants in tight, but that isn't something I would make a habit of.

The Modified barrel took down mallards at a bit over 30 yds easily. Pheasants further than that often.

Sadly, the gun is being restocked in Colorado by SKB after I took a bad fall with it while pheasant hunting last winter on frozen marsh. I had bad knee issues which ultimately cost me big time. But the knees are fixed and in rehab, just like the gun, so it will be back out there again this year. And the bird populations are definitely looking up.

Uff-da. Sorry to hear of this, and I hope you both heal well.

We will, but it is frozen mud, not wet mud, that is the danger to double guns.

SKB will do a good lob for you...Geo

Dave,
A sweet 16 is one of the few autoloaders that I'll take on a duck hunt...it's a 1956 that has been in the family since it was new...

Excellent!

Mine is a first year (1933) Remington 11, 16 gauge. They used a slightly slimmer frame on these very early ones. It's quite dynamic and points with the best of them. We've had many adventures across the span of 4 dogs.

Rubberhead are you hunting the Hell hole swamp. I used to live in Ladson and my friend Wormey lived in Schulerville.

Update: My shop called yesterday and I picked up a BSS. It's a fresh and clean gun with only a few very minor blemishes. Single nonselective all Japan gun, 28" M/F, I expected it to be heavier than what it is, and at 7 lbs 6 oz. it is definitely not a fencepost like some will say. It's somewhat lively and balanced right on the hinge pin. The metal work and overall build quality is simply excellent and impressive. It has a comfortable and brawny "man's gun" feel, and quite the departure from my AyA #2 16. The chokes are .018 & .039 and I'll leave them as they are for now. With its 2 3/4" chamber I'll see how the 1 1/4 oz. Kent Bismuth looks on paper. I can always do what Stan did and open the tight barrel to Mod and shoot steel. I've used 2 3/4" steel in my A5 the last couple years, and it kills ducks just fine. Now I understand what you BSS fans know. It was worth every penny.

Glad it meets your approval, Dave. Ducks beware.

One thing not often mentioned is the slimness of the BSS 12 ga. action. I once did some cursory measuring with a dial caliper and found that the width across the breech is the least of any 12 ga. S x S gun I own. It's certainly not a sluggish gun, yet attenuates heavy recoil quite well for me.

Congratulations, we'll be expecting pics in the next Favorite Game/Gun Picture thread, which I expect Greg to start up in about three months.

Best, SRH

Thanks, Stan! Your experiences with your BSS definitely had an influence on my buying decision. I've hunted ducks in the Mississippi River swamps since I was a teenager, and at 60 I still get excited about it. Can't wait for that first hour opening day helter-skelter when ducks are in the air coming in from any direction. It'll be fun to knock 'em down with a double!

The serial # doesn't jive with the Browning supplied "look-up" info.

I'm guessing it's a 1972 gun. ???

Traditional swamp names are pretty colorful. Just around here we have "Bear Garden", "Devil's Woodyard", and "No Man's Friend". I've hunted all of them...Geo

Our toughest spot is called, "By'-Hell."

I grew up less than 20 miles from there. I certainly do hunt in that area but have been focusing on bigger water lately.

Rubberhead, when you say "big water", are referring to lakes Marion and Moultrie?

SRH

One of the best duck areas we had when we had ducks was the "Gator Holes" and there was no quessing from where the name came. Gil

We had a hot, unposted spot between two lakes near Fergus Falls, MN where I grew up called "Tennis Shoe Pass" because who ever got to a downed duck first after a big volley of gun fire claimed it. Also called "People's Pass"

I don't mean to totally highjack Dave's threat but I'm trying to kill 27 of the 32 duck species hunting in South Carolina. I'm at 24 now. I'll have to travel (unless I'm very lucky) for the Fulvous Whistling Duck, King Eider, Cinnamon Teal and Barrow's Goldeneye. I'll have to travel for the Harlequin since they're illegal everywhere except 1 per year in Washington state and 4 per year in Alaska. I say all of this to say that I'm having to learn a lot of new areas (big and small) to get it done...here's my tote board...everything was taken in SC except for the Tundra Swan and Cackling Goose. I still need to take the blank spots.

Fun list Rh. Don't feel too bad if you don't quite get to that merganser. Except for the salt water divers, it looks like you might try a trip or three up and down east Texas.

That's interesting Rh. I will hazard a guess that Dave won't be upset by your reply. I didn't realize how many of the 32 I've taken over the years until I looked over your list. Certainly not 24, but nearly half of the waterfowl species you showed.

You said 32 duck species, and geese aren't ducks, but I know what you meant and it is an admirable goal. I hope to see you post one day that you have completed it.

SRH

Post away, Rubberhead. It's been a good thread and getting better.

Quick story, I shot a black duck when I was a senior in high school and mentioned it to an assistant football coach who I knew was an avid duck hunter. That Friday night I got a severe concussion in the 4th quarter of the game. I was pretty much out on my feet the rest of the way, and in the locker room after the game the assistant coach sat facing me on the bench asking me questions trying to bring me back. I couldn't remember a thing. The one that did it was, "Erickson, what kind of duck did you shoot Tuesday night?" At that moment my memory came rushing back in.

A cool and impressive list, Rubberhead. Good luck with it.

You'll probably have to go to Florida for the tree ducks. The black-bellies we have nesting here in GA have all skedaddled south by the time duck season comes in. The Fulvous is quite rare here even in the summer when we are overcome with black-bellies. Lots of Fulvous in the Everglades though...Geo

Dave, not being a waterfowler, I didn't chime in. Just caught up with this topic. BSS would've been my #2 suggestion to you for a gun that will work for ducks and can also make a decent Sporting Clays sxs. My #1 suggestion is one that's seldom seen: Ithaca SKB Model 100 Magnum. Almost all the 12ga Ithaca SKB's were 2 3/4" guns (while all the 20's were 3" . . . go figure!) The 100 magnum was the exception. 30" barrels, 3" chambers, factory recoil pad. But you could look and look for one of those, while there are plenty of BSS 12's on the market. You done good. I favor lighter guns than that for toting in the uplands, but that could also be a good late season pheasant gun.

Larry, when I went to my shop to pick up the BSS there was a very high condition 12 gauge SKB 100 on the rack. It was a post Ithaca gun with a pistol grip/splinter stock like a SKB -150. It was quite tempting at $649. He said it�s been there for 3 weeks. Holmen Pawn Gun & Marine.

Larry, since you are here now, I have a question. Dave previously referred to his BSS�s 2-3/4� chambers. I thought all the BSS boxlocks came with 3� chambers. All four of mine are 3� and all that I have seen are 3�. I know a lot of the Miroku-branded guns are 2-3/4�, but what about the BSSs?

Right. I meant 32 duck species and I've killed 24. The tote board shows 40 species (32 ducks, 7 geese and 1 swan). Counting the geese I've killed 28 web-footed waterfowl in SC. The additional two Cackling Goose and Tundra swan I killed in ND and NC.

There is no generally accepted official count for the North American Waterfowl Slam like there is for big game but it's generally considered 32 duck species, 7 goose species, 1 swan and (go figure) 1 crane species for a total of 41. There's a facebook group called H41 - for Hunt the 41 species of waterfowl. I never thought the crane made much sense because it has a beak instead of a bill and doesn't have webbed feet.

There are some other species that can be taking in extremely regulated hunts like Emperor goose and trumpeter swan but these aren't counted.

The goose species are 1) Brant, 2) Cackling Goose, 3) Canada Goose, 4) White-fronted (specklebelly), 5) Ross' goose, 6) Blue Goose and 7) Snow goose. It's odd because Blue and Snow geese are accepted as a single species of lesser snow goose. There is larger subspecies of snow goose - the greater snow goose that I think should count over just the color variations but nobody asked me. haha.

Aren�t the pacific and Atlantic brant known to be separate subspecies? Maybe, you can do a combo trip when you get after a Harlequin?

I don't think you would be considered in violation if you bagged a Trumpeter Swan when holding a tag for a Tundra. Supposed to be 63,000 Trumpeters in interior North America now so your chances are fairly good.

I'm curious about that myself, Rubberhead.

A few years ago I would have passed on this BSS and looked for 3" chambers. A hard-kicking new A5 came along and I tried some 2 3/4" steel at 1350 fps and not only were they much more pleasant to shoot, I didn't notice any drop-off in how the ducks came down.

Today I drove up to the twin cities suburbs and had a very good gunsmith open my Full barrel choke up to the same degree as the Mod barrel for .018 & .018. Stan's idea is pretty brilliant, really. It will shoot solid full patterns with steel, and with bismuth it will be back to the "slight-modified" realm.

In looking at the bird chart, I see I've killed 25 of the different species.

Mergus

Larry, when I was in the shop picking up my BSS there sat this SKB 100 w/30" barrels. It's not a "Magnum," but it is in excellent condition and too nice to walk away from at $600. The chokes are Mod/Full and it will be a good partner for my BSS using bismuth.

If it's PG/splinter, that'd be like a 100. PG/beavertail but extxractors vs ejectors is a 150. Not as many of those around as either 100's or 200's. I think Ithaca only imported the 150's for 2 or 3 years.

Ya-ya-ya, I can't keep all the SKB models straight. Anyway this M100 w/30" barrels came home with me today.

I know less about the BSS than I do SKB's. Matter of fact, I've never owned a BSS 12ga. Have owned a couple BSS 20ga Sporters and a couple BSS Sidelocks. Live and learn. I did not know that some BSS 12's were 2 3/4". But I guess that should not come as a surprise, since all the SKB 12's imported by Ithaca (except the rare magnums) are 2 3/4".

[quote=Dave Erickson]

Larry, when I was in the shop picking up my BSS there sat this SKB 100 w/30" barrels. It's not a "Magnum," but it is in excellent condition and too nice to walk away from at $600. The chokes are Mod/Full and it will be a good partner for my BSS using bismuth.
[quote]

Hmmm. Looks like I learned twice today. (That makes it a good day.) Can't recall having seen an Ithaca SKB 100 with 30" barrels that wasn't a magnum. Anyhow, nice find at that price!

I've spent $600 in much worse ways than this! This thing is very smooth and stable with the 30" barrels.

I've never seen a 100 with any engraving like that or with 30" barrels. Certainly, that was money well spent.

This Simpson has been on several duck hunts. Bought a shopping cart full of 10ga 3.5" #6 Federal tungsten when Cabelas was closing them out. Took them apart and reloaded them for the 16ga.
The tungsten hits them about like lead used to.

Mission accomplished!

I don't think I'll ever hunt ducks with anything but a SxS again.

Looks like a happy dog!

Looks like a dog from whom I would think twice before swiping one of those gorgeous woodies...

Zeb is a sweetheart. My prior Draht, Gus, would have growled if you looked at the ducks.

Brent- congrats on the proper grammar in your sentence structure. Perhaps like myself, you studied the phraseology of Winston Churchill- who once famously said: "An umbrella (bumbershoot) is an item which in the London rain I shall not go without". I gave up shooting woodies and teals years ago, the heavier steel loads and the full choked 12 gauge M12's I use for mallards and geese tend to dis-integrate the smallish ducks. RWTF

Looks like that BSS is gettin' it done, Dave. Congratulations. Were did you end up at with the chokes? You probably told me but I've forgotten a lots lately.

SRH

Thanks, Stan. I was hoping you'd see the post. I let out that left barrel to .018", so it's now .018 x .018 like yours. Works out real well. With bismuth it's shooting solid Mod patterns, and with steel it tightens up to Full choke performance.

Earlier in the day I was shooting my old 16 gauge Remington 11 and I couldn't hit a dammed thing with it. I have seemed to have lost my ability to quickly adapt to different shotguns. For hunting I'll be sticking to SxS's.

I thought that was what you did, but wasn't sure. Those two .018" have served me well for some 10 years in mine. Wouldn't change anything in hindsight. I remember how long it's been because I won the AA class S x S event at the US Open in Tunica, in 2010 with it, with the original M and F chokes. I had my buddy open the left barrel so that I could shoot steel in it that next duck season.