doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The pinfire game gun

Diggory sent this re oldest known UK-made pin-fire center-break:

"Mark Crudgington knows of two Lang�s that date from 1854- they have bill of sale."

Perhaps someone could contact Mark and get photos and history?

1854 it is then, until a verifiable Lang from1853 turns up, which seems unlikely. 1854 appears to fit the best information And Lang�s own account, and the 1851-1852 dates Used by other authors were probably assumptions that made sense at the time. Little by little, the picture becomes clearer.

The pictures are becoming more clear. We were wondering about the first pinfires in Britain coming from London. Lang ,Reilly, and H. Holland were mentioned as early contributors. It seems to be commonly believed that Hollands made before 1892 when they built a factory were made by others. Maybe some finishing by Holland. Scott is mentioned as a source for years. I am wondering if guns started by others might have been involved in the first pinfires by Holland and maybe others. Then why exclude Birmingham, or possibly Belgium as contributing sources ?

The date on the bill of sale could add additional information. For John Rigby & Co.
the time-lag between the assigning a serial number and the sale of a bespoke gun
was at least 3-months. I assume it would have been roughly the same for Lang. Thus
the date on that bill of sale may indicate manufacture in 1853.

I'll get an email for Mark and ask. But Diggory was clear that the date of the Lang's was on the bill of sale....

And Daryl, I'll let Steve comment more but my $.02:
-- I don't believe Birmingham began making barrels with lumps or center-break pin-fire actions until about 1861. They couldn't have made those guns.
-- As for importing barrels and actions from Belgium, that's always been a possibility. Trantor was doing that for revolvers in the mid-1850's. But my understanding is that imported barrels have to be stamped in a particular way. I don't know about actions but until a Belgian connection can be proved, would prefer to put the credit for making these early guns on London craftsmen - and that appears to be who Blanch was talking about when he wrote about the change over from breech plugs to lumps, etc. and the lessons his men had to unlearn and learn.

Argo44 - let me clarify the point I was trying to make.
If, for instance, the date on the bill of sale was January 1854, then manufacture would
have begun, and likely completed, in 1853.

Sourcing of barrels... Now there's an interesting subject. The easy answer is that both British and Belgian tubes were used in British gunmaking. Regardless of source, the tubes (for a double gun), were brazed together, barrel lumps and loops brazed or soldered on, and ribs soldered on, and sent to the proof-house. Akehurst notes that in the 1870s, John Marshall (Monway Iron and Steel Works, Wednesbury, Staffordshire) "supplied the majority of damascus shotgun barrels to the Birmingham gun trade, and while generally of sound quality, they contained a lot of "greys." These greys were caused by small pieces of scale becoming embedded in the metal during the fire welding. They did not materially effect strength, but they left marks when the barrels were polished, which rendered them unfit for the barrels of best guns." In muzzle-loaders you could not see down the barrel, so greys were of no consequence; with breech-loaders, it was another matter. It was because of greys in British barrel tubes that the trade sourced barrel tubes from Belgium (mostly) and France. They were much clearer of greys, but were softer. To quote J. H. Walsh in The Modern Sportsman's Gun and Rifle (1882) regarding the use of Belgian tubes:

"We were, in common with our competitors, excepting for first and second quality, using a large proportion of these tubes; in fact, we think that quite three-fourths of the tubes used in Birmingham are Belgian make, and nearly all the London trade use them, with this difference, that they use the best quality, which are no doubt harder than the cheaper kinds, but are still softer and less durable than those of English make, and cost as much."

"For many years we have been almost entirely dependent upon one maker for Damascus, stub Damascus, and laminated steel iron; he, having a monopoly, has not cared to trouble himself to keep his iron up to its original good standard, notwithstanding the fact that, in consequence of its high price and want of clearness (freeness from greys), his trade has been gradually leaving him and going to Belgium."

"One reason for the cleaner forging done by the Belgian smiths was that they used a smaller forge fire composed of a mixture of powdered clay and small coke that kept the work cleaner than the big coke fires of Birmingham."

It would seem that the most beautifully figured Damascus tubes used in British pinfires were of Belgian origin, made into finished barrels by British smiths and proofed in Britain. The Rose Brothers of Halesowen, with their patented machine-Damascus barrels were British tubes, strong, but not as attractive as the imported barrels.

In trying to determine where the first British pinfires were put together in the mid-1850s, I think the answer is London. If a London firm had the capacity, it could add lumps and loops to the brazed barrel tubes, and the first outworker actioner, EC Hodges, was London-based; Lang, Blanch and Reilly were London-based. Post-1858 I think Birmingham would have been quick to adapt to changing demand and develop the skills necessary to produce barrelled actions, for a demand that really only started after the Field trials. Subsequent to the trials, it might also have been cheaper for the London firms to have much of the work done to order from Birmingham workbenches. Perhaps we'll never know, but I'm going with this hypothesis for now, and will happily be proven wrong by new data!

Back to the guns.

From a gunmaking perspective, the breech-loader changed a few things. Parts makers adapted, and the new trade of actioning appeared. Conservative craftsmen retained as many of the old patterns and designs as possible, while adding clever barrel fastening methods and other features. Existing firms flourished, new firms came and went, with the better ones built businesses that would continue into the 21st century. A case in point is W & C Scott & Son.

By 1865 Birmingham was producing most of the country's pinfire game guns. The larger operations wanted in on the action, and W. & C. Scott & Son was one of these, starting in that year. They might have built some 2000 pinfire game guns in all before producing centre-fire guns only, perhaps more than any maker, but I have only ever encountered one.

William Charles Scott was born in 1806. William reportedly worked on the farm with his parents until he was 21 years old, and then obtained an apprenticeship as a gun finisher in Bury St Edmunds, possibly with Benjamin Parker or William Young. The reason his apprenticeship started late (instead of at the age of 14) may have been due to having been needed on the farm. His brother, Charles, may also have been apprenticed to Benjamin Parker. In 1834 when his apprenticeship finished, William married Mary Susan Middleditch and moved to Birmingham where he established himself as an outworker gun finisher at 11 Lench Street. In 1840 Charles joined William in the business, and the firm of William & Charles Scott was established as "Gun and Pistol Makers". In 1835 William and Mary had a son, William Middleditch Scott, and 1836 they had another son, James Charles Scott. In 1842 the firm moved to 33 Lench Street and took additional premises at 21 Loveday Street, and in 1849 the firm moved again to Court, 4 Shadwell Street. According to the 1851 census William Middleditch Scott (aged 15) was working in the firm as a gun finisher, James Charles Scott (aged 14) was employed as a gun engraver. In 1855 the firm moved into larger and more prestigious premises at 94-95 Bath Street.

In 1858 William Middleditch Scott was made a partner and the name changed to W & C Scott & Son. In the 1861 census, William Scott was recorded employing 18 men and two boys. By this time, James Charles, aged 24, was employed as a gun engraver and another son, Frederick M Scott, 22, was employed as a gun engraver and gun stocker. In 1861 William Scott was appointed a guardian of the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House, a position he held until 1865. In 1864 the firm opened a showroom in London at 7 Dorset Place, Pall Mall, which is where today's gun was sold. From 1864 to 1895 the firm occupied premises in Bagot Street, in Birmingham. To give an idea of the size of the company in the 1860s, they were producing about 2000 sporting guns a year, dwarfing most other firms by a factor of 20 or more. London makers such as James Purdey and Harris Holland bought guns from W & C Scott & Son, for grades lower than their "London best."

In 1864 and 1865 Westley Richards joined Moore & Harris in a partnership established to save the manufacturing business of Moore & Harris from closure, but this was not successful. Moore & Harris had a fairly substantial business exporting to the USA and this attracted the interest of W & C Scott & Son, who bought the business at auction. The W & C Scott & Son business kept growing, as did their access to distant markets.

On 25 October 1865, William Middleditch Scott obtained his first patent (No.2752) for the famous Scott Spindle. This patent was used by Purdey in conjunction with their double bolt (Patent No. 1104 of 1863) and this combination soon became the standard opening mechanism for double barrelled guns. In 1866 William Middleditch Scott was appointed a guardian of the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House, he retained this position until 1894. In 1869 William Scott retired and William Middleditch Scott took over the running of the business. In 1871 the Dorset Place showroom in Pall Mall, London, moved to 10 Great Castle Street, Regent Circus (now Oxford Circus) where it remained until 1899. In 1883 William Scott, founder of the business, died. In 1887 William Middleditch Scott retired (aged 51) and James Charles Scott took over the running of the business. By this time the company employed about 200 men. In 1897 W & C Scott & Son amalgamated with P Webley & Sons to form Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co Ltd.. William Middleditch Scott died in 1916, and James Charles Scott died in 1917.

Today's gun is a 12-bore double-bite screw grip rotary under-lever pinfire sporting gun by William and Charles Scott and Son of Birmingham, number 11617 made in 1866, the second year the firm had been making pinfires. The 27 7/8" damascus barrels have London proofs, and a barrel maker's mark SP (possibly Samuel Probin, a gun barrel maker at Court, 11 Loveday Street). The top rib is signed "W. & C. Scott & Son 7 Dorset Place Pall Mall London" and the back-action locks are signed "W. & C. Scott & Son". The gun has beautifully chiselled hammers (the same hammer design appears on other Scott pinfires, evidently a house style), an elongated top strap, thin percussion fences, a trigger guard bow with prominent raised clips for the under-lever, and attractive 30%-coverage foliate scroll engraving. W & C Scott & Son pinfire sporting guns were made in three qualities, A (fine), B (medium) and C (plain), and within these were differing grades. "A" guns combined the best workmanship and materials and often incorporated patented features, such as the Purdey thumb snap-action and the Dougall Lockfast action. Such guns generally had a gold name escutcheon and full coverage engraving. "B" guns had a sterling silver escutcheon and could also incorporate patent actions, 22-lines-per-inch chequering, and 50 to 75% engraving, often with game scenes. "C" guns had a silver or nickel-silver escutcheon, somewhat less-figured wood, coarser 20-lines-per-inch chequering, and less than 50% engraving coverage. Today's gun represents a higher grade of the plain "C" quality. If only plain-quality entry-level guns of today had this degree of fit and finish, let alone wood figure and engraving! The bores are pitted and the gun weighs 7 lb 2 oz.










For those of you with an extensive collection of the Double Gun Journal, I can direct you to Issue 2 of Volume 14, Spring 2003, for excellent photos and descriptions of two other Scott pinfires, including one with a Lockfast action.

Diggory made an on-line introduction to Mark Crudgington. I sent a query to him about Reilly SN 10054 and the Lang's Diggory referred to. Here is Mark's first reply - interesting.

(edited: Mark has asked that our correspondence be private. One must respect his requests. He is a well known gun maker from a long and establish gun making family.)

Knowledgeable words to help us understand the early days of the pinfire, Argo44!! Thanks for sharing.

So many contemporary advertisements in The Field refer to makers having guns in stock, your letter helps explain why.