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Thanks, Mr. Nash. Interesting to apply the makers to the shapes. I noticed your #8 Dougall and it brought to mind a couple of Dougall centerfires from ca 1872 or 1874. Dougall seemed to like a fairly unusual hammer shape for the centerfires. If one squints hard enough at your #8 , taking off the forward part of the hammer that reaches the pin, leaves a hammer shape not unlike these two centerfires from Dougall.




Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 09/25/20 10:08 AM.
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Welcome to the discussion, Graybeardtmm3, on the evolutionary oddity that is the pinfire game gun. Those who bought one at the time did not know their treasured gun was going to be obsolete in record time -- no one knows such things. For a few years they were the best game guns in the world, and they were made with skill and artistry. Now they are cultural relics from another age.

Those are beautiful Dougalls, Mr. Hallquist! And the hammer work is quite impressive. I have to concede hammerless guns are a technological improvement, but... I much prefer the style of a hammergun.

Decorating one's hunting weapons is amongst the oldest expressions of human art. Colouration is believed to be the oldest, but engraving is perhaps the next-oldest form of decoration on weapons, and can be found on weapons and hunting tools dating as far back as the Stone and Bronze Ages. From the fifteenth century onwards, it has been (and continues to be) the favoured means of decorating firearms.

The pinfire game gun offered a greater potential surface area for metal engraving than the muzzle-loader, and this was often used to great effect, within the relatively constrained and conservative boundaries of British tastes. The typical British gun decoration of the day was exemplified with the subtle application of acanthus-leaf scroll, border patterns, occasional bucolic hunting scenes, and horn inlays on the fore-end. Some engraving motifs are bolder than others, with deftly-hidden fantastical designs that only appear upon close inspection (as we've seen in this thread), or starburst/lightning flash motifs added around the barrel pin holes, a hold-over from the decoration surrounding flint-lock priming pans. British tastes generally did not go for the chiselled relief engraving, flashy precious-metal, bone and ivory inlays, carved stocks, and other visual distractions popular on the Continent. And yet, while the British game gun was an example of artistic restraint, some clients went further in choosing or ordering guns with the most minimal decoration. Not absent of decoration, as might be expected on a working tool or martial arm, but the merest application of lines, shaped contours, and enhanced screw heads to remind the owner that skilled artisans produced the gun, but which hid nothing in the process. Was such a gun chosen to reflect one's personal philosophy? Or was it to save a few shillings? I doubt it was the latter, as it is often fine guns by respected makers that carry the least decoration. Some makers, such as W & C Scott & Son, used engraving coverage as one of the indicators of grade, but the difference in cost between grades would have largely been due to the qualities of barrels and locks employed, and the use of different action designs. Westley Richards guns are frequently encountered with minimal engraving, so it must have been an option by that maker, or maybe even promoted as a feature. And it is not like the guns were devoid of any character, with oiled or lacquered and polished stocks, case-coloured metal, and polished browned barrels displaying damascus patterns at their best. No, I presume the amount and style of engraving was part of what attracted the client to the gun in the first place -- some preferred more, some less.

Today's gun is one of the plainest I've come across, yet the construction quality is evident. It is signed E M Reilly & Co., so this is where Argo44's voluminous research comes in handy!

I would encourage readers to read Argo44's detailed history of the firm. In the broadest terms, it all started with Joseph Charles Reilly, who was born in Ireland and moved to London. In 1814 he opened a business as a jeweller at 12 Middle Row, Holborn and, typically for jewellers at the time, he also traded in guns. In about 1832 Joseph's son Edward Michael joined the firm, and in 1833 the business was entirely about guns. In 1835 the firm moved to 316 High Holborn, trading as J C Reilly until 1840, then as just Reilly, probably when Edward Michael became a partner. In 1847 the business moved to 502 New Oxford Street, and in 1857 Joseph Charles Reilly retired. The business was re-named Reilly & Co in 1858, and in 1859 was re-named again as E M Reilly & Co, moving to 315 Oxford Street, at premises formerly occupied by Joseph Manton, nearby to the premises of James Purdey.

According to Argo44's serial number timeline, today's gun, number 14672, dates from 1867, one of the 450 serial-numbered guns Reilly produced that year. How many pinfire game guns were included within that number is anyone's guess, but Reilly was, with Joseph Lang and John Blanch, a prominent London advocate of the pinfire system. If comparable to other prominent gunmakers at the time, I would fathom the annual number to be about 100 pinfire guns, or fewer.

It is a 12-bore rotary-underlever pinfire sporting gun with fine 29 7/8" barrels signed "E. M. Reilly & Co Oxford Street London" on the top rib, Both barrels are marked with London proofs, and a barrel maker's stamp "S" that I have been unable to trace. The unmarked double-bite screw grip action has London proofs, and a very slight radius at the breech/bar junction. The arcaded fences are left plain, as is the extended top strap. The back-action locks are signed "E. M. Reilly & Co London", the rounded hammers are left plain, and the metal parts have a plain border engraving only, with some detailing around the screws. Befitting a quality gun, the chequered butt has heel and toe plates, not a common feature at the time. Despite the fine condition of the gun overall, the bores are moderately pitted, and the gun weighs a light 6 lb 15 oz.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/04/21 06:18 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Were some hammers made differently for those who preferred to cock by thumb rather than by edge of hand?

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Hal, as far as I know, all pinfire hammers were designed to be pulled back by the thumb. They would be at half-cock for loading, and using one's thumb to bring the hammer at full cock leaves the hand gripping the stock, barrels pointing forward, in preparation for shouldering the gun to fire. I believe Mr. Diggory Hadoke demonstrates the technique in a recent video of his, using a centre-fire hammer gun with non-rebounding locks (to my knowledge all pinfires had non-rebounding locks)
=


I can't imaging using the edge of the hand to do so (actually, I just tried doing so with several guns, and couldn't do it).

The geometry of hammers on later centre-fire guns can be quite different, but I really can't speak to those, my two centre-fire hammer guns are from the same time period as the pinfires.

Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/04/21 06:18 PM.
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1867, 09 Feb - Stanton patent 367 - rebounding hammers
1869, 30 Dec - Stanton patent 3774 - rebounding hammer modification

It took awhile for the invention to take hold but it was so logical and good, a lot of older guns were subsequently modified. Given that pin-fires dominated the market up to 1870-72, it's entirely possibly that there were pin-fires with rebounding hammers.


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Argo44,

I have complete information on 750 of Powell's patent action pinfires. The guns were sold
between 1864 and 1891. None of them are described as having rebounding locks. Some conversions to CF were equipped with rebounding locks but there was an additional cost of 1. Centerfires overtook pinfires c.1868-69.

Powell started supplying rebounding locks in 1867.

I haven't examined the Rigby books with these questions in mind but my impression is
that Rigby would closely mirror the Powell experience.

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A pinfire with rebounding hammers would seem odd, since the rebounding arc would not be large enough to allow the pinfire hammer noses to clear the barrels when opening the gun. Then, what would be the point of a rebounding pinfire lock ? It took a firearm with firing pins in the receiver to make use of rebounding locks.

Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 09/28/20 04:02 PM.
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Self to self - duhhh. You guys are right of course


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One of the realities of narrow, obscure, thematic collecting is that you rarely find affordable pieces in high condition, let alone ones in their original case, with tools and label. Sometimes you come across a bit of a wreck, but it might have unusual features that make it worthwhile to acquire, and learn from. While the Internet is a wonderful marketplace, sometime you are sometimes buying almost sight unseen and you don't know what you have until you get it in hand. And when you are starting out in your collecting adventure, it is tempting to say "I'll wait for a better one to come around!" Years later, you realise the ones you ignored are likely the only ones of that type/maker you'll ever see. I can remember every pinfire I've passed on, with remarkable clarity.

So when a clapped-out pinfire single turned up, I decided to go for it regardless. It is a 12-bore, made sometime in the 1870s, probably in a Birmingham back-alley. It has a pitted 31 1/8" damascus barrel, no serial number, and the maker's or retailer's name inscribed on the short sighting rib is too indistinct and hieroglyphic to make out ("J. & - -.N"). I might figure it out eventually. It has the Birmingham proof reserved for single-barreled guns, and the fairly generic foliate scroll engraving has seen much better days. The action is a single-bite swinging side-lever and sliding bolt, which I had not come across on a pinfire before (but is commonly seen on cheap Belgian-made centre-fire guns into the 1880s). The side-lever return spring and mainspring were broken, and a crude replacement hammer had been welded (welded..?) on to the tumbler stem. Still, it is a pinfire single, and I'd learned my lesson, I wasn't waiting for the next one to come along. Next will be to figure out when this action type started to be used on inexpensive guns, and, with a ruler to help, figure out the number of missing letters in the name.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/04/21 06:20 PM.
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All good things come to an end. I started this thread with the triple aim of shedding light on the pinfire game gun for those who had encountered few of them before, sharing information on pinfire guns and their makers, and gathering new information from followers of this board who have pinfires in their collections. As I've reached all three of my objectives, this is as good a time as any to stop with the regular posts to this thread, before interest in the subject matter wanes entirely. I shall go back to concentrating on finishing the book, for which my posts can be considered a hint of what's to come. Indeed, the book will delve into a more complete history of Britain's role in the development of the pinfire system, starting with Charles Howard's experiments with fulminates. The book will look at specimen guns in greater detail, about 60 or so in my collection, and possibly others. The book will also look at the cultural and historical influences of the time that influenced the adoption of the breech-loader, and reflect on the evolution of the gunmaking world as it threaded through the political and social changes of the period.

I hope others will keep adding to this thread to keep it going and I will be around to contribute and comment as I can, and answer questions and queries should they come up. Thank you to all who have contributed to the discussion so far and who have kept it on-topic, and thanks to the silent readers for having built an astounding (to me) view count on this thread of over 48,000 views. I never thought such a narrow and esoteric subject would have engendered such an interest.

Posts are always more interesting with pictures, so here are random images that show off well the gunmaking skills of the period.

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To finish, it is proper to return to Mr Casimir Lefaucheux, the inventor of the pinfire system. I do not have one of his guns, but I do have one of his cases... As is typical with Continental cases there is no printed paper or leather label, but the maker's name, in gold, is pressed on to the inner baize, over padding. Though faded and with letters missing, the lid inscription should read: "Lefaucheux Inventeur 37 Rue Vivienne Paris". Casimir Lefaucheux moved to this address in 1850, and died in 1852. The case likely dates somewhere from 1850 onwards, and is quite likely earlier in date than any British pinfire.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/04/21 06:20 PM.
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