doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LOW PRESSURE LOADS FOR DAMASCUS

In 12 ga, I have used 15 grains of Nitro 100 (3/4 oz). Sometimes, it doesn't meter well but when it does it works fine. I'm just wondering what others are using. Many thanks, Gil

PB. Bought 36 pounds of it in the last couple years. Should run me for a long time.

when in doubt, use black, pyrodex or combo there of?

I read a Tom Roster article recently that questioned the necessity for low pressure in damascus guns. Made me feel good because I've used bismuth which doesn't seem to be loaded to particularly low pressure. He seemed to think recoil was much more a problem...Geo

Pretty sure we've discussed this issue a number of times here. And I know Doc Drew has posted information from contemporary literature, back when a lot of people were still shooting Damascus. The conclusion, as I recall, is that you don't need to go ultra low with pressure in Damascus barrels--assuming the gun is in condition to shoot in the first place. Many people looked for 5-6,000 psi recipes. Others suggested that if a gun won't handle something in the range of 7500 psi, you probably shouldn't be shooting it.

And of course there are Damascus guns which have been reproofed to current (or previous) nitro pressure standards. In which case you've got pretty solid guidance. If it's Brit and has a current reproof--either STD or the previous 850 bar--the service pressure standard is 10,730 psi.

Hodgson's Longshot powder is used in many loads at lower pressures than some bp loads. Check out their website data.

There are some decent low pressure loads for 7/8 ounce using Clays. Check the Hogdon manual. Very clean loads in my guns.

I believe gil is simply asking for recipes we use

Our previous discussion regarding Roster's article, which has a link to the original
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=564048&page=1

and my response on Shotgun World
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=505616

I use SR7625 in my 1 oz and 1 1/8 12ga 2 1/2 inch loads. I keep my pressures unde 6,000 PSI. I agree with Geo Newbern on keeping velocities down and stay under 1150 FPS. The results are dirty but effective on clays and quail.

I purchased 4 5lb containers years ago and I still have not finished the first one as I rarely shoot my hand me down Hodgson Damascus Hammergun. I also picked up 2,000 Gold Medal hulls, and 3,000 12S0 wads. it is the only 12 reloading I do other than RMC Brass Hulls.

I am basically a 16 ga guy.

Nitro 100 was 'reformulated' a good long time ago. What happened was they were forced by world politics and trade agreements to change manufacturers.

The 'new' stuff is quite unlike the old, and why they kept the name is a mystery.

Western does not publish the very low pressure loads for this 'formulation' like they did the old, and they publish nothing for 3/4 oz.

So, you're on your own unless you have a stash of the 'old' N100.

I'm still using up a hoard of AA Lite. When I'm out, I'll likely change to American Select.

Both American Select and Extra Lite produce some good low pressure loads. You save on volume with Extra Lite, but sometimes it can be hard to find in anything other than one pound cans.

Mixing powders is never a good idea.

My every experience with Pyrodex and its ilk, in rifles and shotguns, has sent me running back to black. Then too, there's the corrosiveness of Pyrodex - I don't know how the other substitutes stack up.

Here are some low pressure, low payload, tested loads that seem to have some giddy-up and go for clays:

https://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ceretto.pdf

Ceretto is recommending taper hull wads with a straight hull, which is why these show low pressure. The loads rely on an inefficient gas seal.

I would much prefer this load using the correct wad for the hull:

Shotshell
12 Gauge

2 3/4-in. Federal Gold Medal Plastic Target Shells
1 shot wt.
Fed 209A
12S0

Clay Dot 17.9
1200 FPS
5,870 PSI

This is from Alliant, it's tested also.

The discussion of single vs double base is meaningless.

PB and 7625 are long gone.

I'm not having anybody 'reproof' any of my guns. Ever.

Other than that, it's a great article.

shooting Rio's factory 2 1/2 dram 7/8 oz 12 ga loads.

I have a PDF on my computer of some low pressure loads but can't figure out how to attach or include in a post. Any help from you folks?

George Newbern, Roster did not say anything like what you "said he said". Maybe you could reword your statement. He doesn't like any smokeless load in any composite barrel gun from what I can read. He has no idea what he is talking about.

I have been thinking about the many reasons some people are so against shooting composite, twist or Damascus barrels. It seems there is a short list of reasons that I fail to agree with unless you consider all the facts.

First is the blanket statement that all composite barrels are weaker than steel barrels. It�s just not true. Some may be, but some of the early cast Steel was much weaker when new and has not gotten better with age. Then the argument that barrels are 100+ years old so the are automatically defective just due to age. Well maintained guns should show no inherent weakness just due to time. Then the claim that black powder has lower pressure is just not true if you load properly loads. In fact chamber pressures tend to spike high for black than non black.

So why do we worry about low pressure so much? I think a bit of it is a comfort level of thinking a low pressure load will give us a safety margin. That�s a bit of a mistake I think. A set burst barrel at 5,000 psi I suspect will be just as hard on the hand as one at 7,8 or 10,000. I do think low pressure load are a bit easier on old wood and old shoulders. Velocity and payload combined to produce recoil and stress on wood and low pressure loads tend to be slower or lighter as a rule. That should reduce cracked stocks on guns with wood dried for a century or more.

I�ve stopped worrying about low pressure loads these days. I have basic moderate pressure loads for both 12 and 20�s. If a gun is deemed safe to shoot after close inspection I will only use those shells in them. 6,500 psi in 12 and >8,000 in 20. Both are 2 1/2� shells which I use in longer chambers when needed. That has reduced my components and on hand by about half. Plus just by looking at the 2 1/2� loaded shell I know it will be safe for all my shootable guns.

As to all writers these days, who make wide reaching, blanket statements, I choose to question them until they show facts instead of just exposure opinions. It is impossible to say anything is safe or unsafe without careful examination and testing. Even then things change so opinions need to be reconsidered as time goes by.

Roster is good in many areas. Foreign proofs, any vintage guns not meant for most US factory ammo: Not so much.

Roster said about what I said he said regarding the necessity of low pressure, and he opined that higher pressures up 10,000 psi wouldn't hurt. He didn't say anything about my separate opinion regarding use of bismuth in damascus. That was on me...Geo

Many of us reduce pressure in our 2 3/4" reloads in order to shoot them in guns with 2 1/2" chambers. Based on information from Sherman Bell's "Finding Out for Myself" articles in Double Gun Journal. Given that the SAAMI standard service pressure for the 12ga is 11,500 psi, it's not a good idea to shoot most American factory ammo in foreign doubles or vintage American doubles if they didn't leave the factory with 2 3/4" chambers. But if you are working with a formula that puts you in the 8,000 psi range (easy to do with 12ga reloads) you won't come anywhere close to 10,000 psi even factoring in the increase (typically a few hundred psi) that results from the longer hull in the shorter chamber. You can also eliminate much of that pressure jump by having the forcing cones lengthened but leaving the chamber alone.

Not being able to post the page of low pressure load data here, I put on Trapshooters.com. Check that out if you're interested.

https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/very-low-pressure-loads.887683/

KYJ
please clarify for me - is > 8,000 psi a low pressure load in the 20G?

I'd say it's pretty low for a 20ga. The smaller the bore, the higher the pressure. Much easier to make up low pressure 12ga reloads vs 20ga or smaller.

If you look you can find several 7/8 ounce loads that come in under
8,000 psi.. Two of my favorites are 800X 1200fps at 7500 psi and a
572 load which is 1150fps at 7,200 psi. I have used both and they are listed on Hodgdon powder site and I had the pressures confirmed by testing. Both use common components which I like a lot. I hate speciality loads with some weird was which seems to be sold only one place in the world.

I�ve even seen 12 loads with pressure as low as 3,500psi at 1125 fps. But I always worry about cold weather ignition problems with ultra light loads.

Thank you KYJ.

If you have a 20 bore that was proofed at 850 bar, which is 12,328.2 psi and load and shoot loads which are 8,000 psi or lower you are using loads which are 551.6 bar. While not fire cracker loads they will do the job. I have decided to take a middle of the road approach for my doubles which is to use a moderate load and adjust my shooting to that limitation. I know I am working well under what many consider Service Pressures. I have a load which should be more than safe for use in all my doubles which are sound enough to shoot.

You can even find loads which are in the 7,000 psi range which is 482.6 bar. From 7,000-8,000 psi I look for the load which seems to pattern best for hunting. For clay targets I am happy with them all. Find what you are looking for in load performance and work to having several options that are safe for your needs.

Concur with KY 8,000 PSI is the appropriate line for low pressure 20ga. A search for loads in the range are will give you many options.