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Forums10
Topics38,374
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Most Online1,258 Mar 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423 Likes: 73
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423 Likes: 73 |
Well, that is a very early Boss & Co, Geo, as they only started making pinfires in 1858, and the firm used the Henry Jones double screw grip once the patent expired in 1862. I'm always awed by the amount of use required to wear chequering down to smoothness. Not every single-bite lever-over-guard is of the Lang design like the William Moore. Here is a 16-bore by Charles Frederick Niebour of High Street, Uxbridge (at the time Uxbridge was a town just outside of London, now it is within west London). It has no serial number, as was not uncommon for builders of few breech-loading guns. It is a single-bite action, but it lacks the assisted-opening stud. This is not because the actioner didn't know how to make one, as the gun was actioned by Edwin Charles Hodges himself, the best actioner of the period and the likely person behind the original Lang gun. The 29 7/8" damascus barrels have London proofs, and the top rib is signed ". F. Niebour Uxbridge." The single-bite screw grip action is signed "E. Hodges," and the back-action locks are signed "C. F. Niebour Uxbridge". It is beautifully made, and it has some unusual features. The hammer noses have protruding "lips" of a style I've not frequently encountered, the finial of the under-lever is left smooth, and the fore-end is unusually long, possibly a special request. The gun also has a very brief action bar, and the resulting short distance between the hinge and the bite is enough to make an engineer wince. Still, Hodges must have judged it sufficient, and the gun is still on face. The bores are pitted at the breech, and overall it still shows vestiges of bluing and case colours. The gun with its light frame weighs 6 lb 11 oz. Charles Niebour was in business from 1831 to 1859, at which point his son Charles Frederick took over the business, so I'm guessing an un-numbered gun dates from around that time or early 1860s.
Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/03/21 04:10 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134 Likes: 309 |
Keep them coming please Stephen. This is an amazing historical resource.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175 Likes: 73
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175 Likes: 73 |
Looks like after Charles Frederick died, his window decided to sell off everything at the shop. Uxbridge & W. Drayton Gazette - Saturday 01 June 1889 She must've sold the business to Sydney T. Hackett Uxbridge & W. Drayton Gazette - Saturday 14 June 1890
Last edited by AaronN; 07/10/20 10:54 PM.
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134 Likes: 309
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134 Likes: 309 |
Totally cool AaronN. History being reconstituted.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Nov 2015
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 598 Likes: 30 |
After reading the wonderful article about the Pauly shop in the last DGJ, I realized I had read nothing about any shot and wad units with combustible powder sections. I'm thinking about how the old Colt skin revolver cartridges worked where seating the bullet crushed and opened the powder section. Was anything similar ever tried for shotguns during the muzzleloading or early breechloading period? It is likely shot cartridges of this type would be too delicate to be of practical use.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264 Likes: 196
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264 Likes: 196 |
Hal, I hope that it's not too far off of Mr. Nash's topic, but this may relate to your question a bit. The needlefire shotgun I have used a rolled paper cartridge . No extractor as the cartridge was supposed to be almost totally consumed when fired.
Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 07/11/20 11:10 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423 Likes: 73 |
It isn't possible to understand the history of the pinfire system without looking at at the contemporary breech-loading alternatives at the time, with the Needham needlefire being first and foremost - so not off-topic at all, Daryl. In the late 1850s a sportsman could purchase a new muzzleloader, a gun at its pinnacle of perfection. Or the choice could be made for a new-fangled breech-loader, but which one? A pinfire, a needle-fire from William and Joseph Needham, or a Charles Lancaster breech-loader? Each had their advantages and disadvantages, their followers and their detractors. Some considered the Needham needlefire just plain ugly, in large part because it lacked proper hammers! The Lancaster is rock-solid when closed, but the slide-and-tilt action feels decidedly loose when open, which some found off-putting - and then there was the cost of Lancaster cartridges to consider. The pinfire was of French origin, and required French cartridges. Altogether it took brave souls, not afraid of extra expense and disparaging comments from their peers, to go the breech-loader route. The Needham needlefire was only available as a 'best' gun, so it was expensive and exclusive. So was Lancaster's breech-loader using base-fire cartridges or Pottet / Schneider centre-fire cartridges, which at 60 guineas or more for a cased gun, was the most expensive sporting gun around. Thanks to Daryl for sharing pictures of the needlefire, and here is Lancaster's breech-loader. Then I'm back to pinfires. This particular gun is a 14-bore, number 3092, made in 1858 for Captain Henry John Bower of the 4th (The King's Own Royal) Regiment of Foot. The action is Lancaster's 'slide-and-tilt' type, where the lateral underlever moves the barrels forward before they can swing on the hinge. Note that the action face is not at the normal 90 degree angle to the flats. Instead it is at an acute angle, making for a very strong closure once the barrels have slid back into place. Lancaster favoured nose-less hammers, and the locks are non-rebounding. As to the action design, there is much history behind it. Albert Henry Marie Renette of Paris obtained two French patents in 1820 for exterior-primed (capping breechloader) guns with slide-and-tilt actions, some seven years before Casimir Lefaucheux patented his hinge-action capping breechloading gun, which led the way to his pinfire invention in 1834. In 1853 Renette's son-in-law and partner, Louis Julien Gastinne, obtained French patent No. 9058 for this breech action on a hammer gun, intended to use the new internally-primed centerfire cartridges. The prolific patent agent Auguste Edouard Loradoux Bellford patented the design in Great Britain, receiving patent No. 2778 of 1853. This is the patent that was later assigned to Lancaster and first used for his base-fire cartridge, and the story behind "Charles Lancaster's Patent" marked on his guns -- though the patent was never taken out in his name.
Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/03/21 04:10 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2012
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
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Another key feature of the Gastinne patent was the cartridge extractor I believe. Full SizeAnd for a segue back to pinfire: Also, brought in from Gastinne and patented in England was Brooman's Improvements in Breech-loading Fire-arms. I, RICHARD ARCHIBALD BROOMAN, of 166, Fleet Street, in the City of London, Patent Agent, do hereby declare the nature of the said Invention for “IMPROVEMENTS IN BREECH-LOADING FIRE-ARMS,” (communicated to me from abroad by Louis Julien Gastinne, of Paris, France,) to be as follows:– This Invention relates to those breech-loading fire-arms in which the Lefaucheux cartridge is used with detonating powder, for ensuring central fire He also references the Bellford -> Lancaster gun and then used on a gun which used a Horizontal Pinfire cartridge! both rods F and f work in apertures formed in the metal between the two barrels, as in the guns for which Letters Patent were granted to Auguste Edouard Loradoux Bellford, the 29th day of November 1853, No. 2778, and assigned to Charles William Lancaster, of New Bond Street, London, the 22nd day of November 1856. To retain the cartridge extractor in place I form a recess c, d, in the rod F, into which a small pin k (Figure 2) takes. When the barrels are raised the extractor resumes its original position. Full Size
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134 Likes: 309
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134 Likes: 309 |
What an excellent historical line. Re Reilly, for the record here is the earliest newspaper advertisement so far found for a Reilly center-break "Fusil a Bascule" 04 October 1856, Illustrated London News:
Last edited by Argo44; 07/12/20 07:51 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Oct 2019
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 269 Likes: 56 |
Some really good guns in this thread,I always think that it`s a miracle that so many early breech loaders have survived in good condition given their long obsolescence ! They are a lasting tribute to the skills of their makers thankfully.
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