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Also, what are these breechloading shotgun cartridges:


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Field - Saturday 06 February 1858


Full Size
Field - Saturday 08 September 1860


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Still watching and enjoying this thread.

I need to dig up my percussion breech loading cartridge gun with trigger guard underlever, with assisted opening pin on the action flats.

I think it would be a good one to show in this thread.

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Good find Aaron..The Wire cartridges were well advertised for several years - used in percussion guns. But, darned if I know of those early Eley breech loading cartridges....were they the "Eley Red Cartridges?" Whatever, that 1858 ad is really early - just in time for "The Field" first test shooting.

Eley had enormous military contracts but still found time to pay attention to maybe 500 breech-loading shotguns operating in UK at the time (but admittedly used by the aristocracy). They couldn't have played that important a part since Stonehenge didn't mentioned them at all in his 1859 book. However, all of us would be interested in what you turn up...this is new history in the making.

Last edited by Argo44; 07/17/20 12:21 AM.

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Here's a George Jeffries of Norwich loading machine used for pinfire cartridges as shown in Argo's ad above. It is in a case with a Richard Jeffery [not Jeffries] of Guildford pinfire using the Dougall Lockfast patent.


Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 07/17/20 11:06 AM.
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Ok Let's take it back even further.


Field - Saturday 15 November 1856

Next week


Field - Saturday 22 November 1856

This seems to be the first ad mentioning cartridges for breech-loading guns.


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Tinker, by all means join in. If you have a pinfire, I'd certainly like to know more about it.

Gents, wonderful information on the availability of cartridges, the timeline for that is becoming clearer. The requirement of French cartridges might have slowed down the acceptance of pinfires in the 1850s, that and the cost of a new gun -- it's not like muzzle-loaders were wearing out quickly -- so purchases of British-made pinfires were likely restricted to the wealthy.

If French and Belgian pinfires were available at a lower cost, might these have been popular in Britain, once the pinfire system became acceptable? Other than the reference to a Francotte Bastin gun at the Trials, I'm not finding much about contemporary use of European breech-loaders in Britain at this time. The fact that Gustave Masu ran afoul of the proof house laws suggests European-made guns were being sold. Advertisements mentioning French or Belgian breech-loaders might shed some light.

Back to snap-actions. The Purdey action of May 1863 fits in here, but I have neither a Purdey thumb-hole action, nor a Purdey pinfire, to show. Call it bad luck or an insufficiently deep wallet, but a Purdey pinfire has escaped me. I've recently seen a completely clapped-out Purdey hammergun, badly converted, that started out as a pinfire, but at an eye-watering asking price.

I do, however, have an example of the Thomas Horsley Patent No 2410 of October 1863, and its owner had the gun converted to centre-fire at some point. The high cost of good guns goes a long way towards explaining why so many pinfire game guns were converted to centre-fire.

One of the most famous provincial makers was Thomas Horsley of York. His guns rivalled those from the best London and Birmingham makers, and while most provincial makers used Birmingham-made parts, it appears that Horsley only bought barrel tubes from the forgers, and his firm employed its own barrel borers, action makers, stockers and finishers. The guns were of high quality, made with quality materials, and finished to a very high degree. For over 25 years I have sought a Horsley pinfire, and the best I could manage, and only fairly recently, was to acquire an incomplete, converted specimen. The better the original quality, the more likely the conversion to centre-fire will be both successful and aesthetically pleasing, and Horsley guns are an example of guns that do not lose their looks in the conversion process. Finding a Horsley in its original pinfire configuration is a big order to fill, and I'm still searching.

The IGC Database tells us that Thomas Horsley was born on 17 July 1810, in Doncaster. Horsley reportedly worked for Richard Brunton, a local gunmaker, from about 1825 to 1830. In 1830 Horsley bought the Brunton business, and in 1834 moved his home and business to 48 Coney Street, York, while retaining part of the business in Doncaster. In 1851 Thomas was recorded living at the address with his wife, six daughters, his son Thomas, and an apprentice, Richard Dawson. At the time Thomas Horsley was employing four men. In 1856 the firm moved to 10 Coney Street, and in 1861 he was recorded as employing eight men and three boys (his son Thomas was an apprentice).

On 12 February 1862 Thomas obtained patent No. 374 for a sliding-bolt single-bite snap-action, with a push-forward lever acting on a sprung bolt. On 1 October 1863 he obtained another patent, No. 2410, for a pull-back top-lever or slide. The operating lever was located on the top strap instead of the trigger guard, operated in reverse on the same locking bolt. Patent No. 2410 is the one for which Thomas Horsley rightfully developed his fame. While superficially similar in operation to Westley Richards's patent No. 2506 of 1862, already covered in this thread, the locking mechanism is quite different.

While Horsley built snap-action pinfires starting in 1862, and his pull-lever actions from late 1863, he may have stopped building them by 1867, unless a client specifically wanted one. In any case, the time period in which Thomas Horsley built pinfire sporting guns was probably short, making my chances of finding an intact one that much harder.

By 1871 Thomas was employing 22 men and four boys, making him one of the largest provincial gun makers in the country. In about 1874 the firm became known as T Horsley & Son. Thomas Horsley died in 1882, but the family firm continued at various addresses until 1959, when it closed its doors for good.

Gun number 1450 was made in 1866. It is a bar-in-wood 12-bore sporting gun with the patent pull-top-lever, and it started out as a pinfire. At some point it was converted to centre-fire and fitted with an extractor for rimmed cartridges (something that is not necessary in a pinfire gun), and the pinfire hammers replaced with centre-fire hammers. The 29 15/16" damascus barrels have London proofs, and the top rib is signed "Thomas Horsley Maker York, Patent 2410." The action bar has an unnumbered "Horsley's Patent No." cartouche, meaning the patent use number was not recorded on the gun itself. If a Horsley action was sold to another gun maker the patent use number would be added, essentially a licencing mark. Horsley might not have numbered the actions he used for his own guns, though some makers did. Without seeing more Horsley pinfires, I have no way of telling which practice he chose. If he only marked licenced actions, there is no way of knowing exactly how many pull-top-lever guns Horsley built in total.

The gun is a bar-in-wood construction with non-rebounding bar locks, signed "Thos Horsley Patent." The pull-top-lever is signed "Patent" within a banner, and fine scroll engraving decorates the gun. The conversion is a serious affair, the pin holes have been filled and hidden, and it looks like the standing breech has been strengthened with a slab of steel and re-engraved, and fitted with centre-fire strikers. Look closely at the pictures, remarkable work. The thin fences of the pinfire needed reinforcing, something obviously desirable, but I've never seen this level of work in any other conversion. As the gun still has non-rebounding locks I'm guessing the conversion was done around 1870 or earlier, and from the standing breech work I would also guess the conversion could have been done by Horsley (the mismatched hammers with incorrect engraving might have been a later repair). Sadly this example has lost its fore-end and the barrel fore-end loop. Complete, it would be a stunning, stunning gun -- even as a conversion. The bores are pitted, and the gun weighs 6 lb 14 oz. (minus the fore-end).


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

10 Coney Street, York, where this gun was made, as it is today, now The Phone Store (image capture: Aug 2019 - 2020 Google) (correction thanks to Imperdix)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/03/21 04:35 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist
Here's a George Jeffries of Norwich loading machine used for pinfire cartridges as shown in Argo's ad above. It is in a case with a Richard Jeffery [not Jeffries] of Guildford pinfire using the Dougall Lockfast patent.

Fantastic. Finding a British pinfire game gun is reason enough for celebration, finding one in its original case much harder, and the gun, in its case, with the loading tools is rarest of all.

I was once sold a Jeffery pinfire, but what arrived was a Jeffrey - that story is for another day... And I will soon post a Dougall Lockfast, a truly remarkable action.

The starburst detailing on your Jeffery barrels is wonderful. The Guildford Jefferys made superb guns, and like many Provincial makers, could put up work equal to the best London names.

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Down the rabbit hole if anyone is up for a long read..

I tried to follow the whole thread of conversation about the breech loading cartridges in The Field. It gives a pretty clear understanding of people's thoughts, what guns they were using, whose cartridges they were using, etc. It culminates with that Eley ad on how to use the cartridges. From this too, you clearly see that people were using Eley made pinfire cartridges for a couple years as of 1860.

It begins with someone trying to put wire cartridges into a new cartridge for Needham's pinfire gun. This sparks a months-long conversation about pinfire cartridges and their pros and cons with many anecdata about people's experiences with the cartridges across many guns.


Field - Saturday 06 October 1860


Field - Saturday 27 October 1860


Field - Saturday 03 November 1860


Field - Saturday 17 November 1860


Field - Saturday 01 December 1860


Field - Saturday 08 December 1860


Field - Saturday 15 December 1860


Field - Saturday 29 December 1860


Field - Saturday 05 January 1861


Field - Saturday 02 February 1861

Last edited by AaronN; 07/17/20 01:46 PM.

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Very interesting reading on the subject of cartridges. High percentages of mis-fires would certainly be off-putting. I have a G & J.W. Hawksley pinfire cartridge extractor, with holes to secure the pin, and a hook to pull out the paper case from a separated base.

If someone went to the trouble of making a tool for it, it was a real problem.


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I own a n early Horsley pinfire conversion No1547 built 1866,it has the patent use stamp on the bar but no number .Can`t figure how to add a picture atm.

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